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cerelia
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1#
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Rank:Admin
Score:75
Posts:15
Registered:09/16/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/28/2007 5:44 AM)
I joined the guild at a bad time for you guys progessing throu G lair. Im almost geared out for it but not enough yet. I can understand you guys making that call otherwise people that dont need kara dont have to sit back and go throu kara over and over and over just to help out, and those people end up leaving. i think if you did this you would end up with a more dedicated people, becuse they had to work to get to doing 25 mans with yall and not just get walked throu kara to get geared with there hands being held. I didnt mean to keep asking about kara and didnt know anything about how many people you had ready for 25 mans and didnt know yall were pushing hard for it I dont mind doing pug kara ive done it for past month and its not to bad.
I wish i could run gruls lair with yall and ill be on to help if ya need it but till then ill keep working on gear. Once again im a new member and have only been in wgw for a week and half. Ill be with this guild for long run (sure everyone says that) NO i was in a guild for almost 2 years of having trouble in Pre BC raids and we couldnt get past curator in BC and went throu 2 guild revamps with about 10 people.
so im still working on kara but agree with what you guys on pressing forward with 25 mans, its better to try to step forward then end up to keep steeping back.
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Jakkin70
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2#
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Rank:Admin
Score:130
Posts:26
Registered:08/15/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/28/2007 5:44 AM)
I think this is a great change for the guild. It will definately help us progress and see new content. I completely agree with everything said in the post and cant wait to see this go into effect.
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BouncinBetty
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3#
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Rank:Admin
Score:35
Posts:7
Registered:10/24/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/28/2007 6:19 AM)
First off, I am glad to see us moving on. Now for my Availability and opinion:
I am available for raids at about 4:30 server time Monday through Saturday, and almost any time on Sunday. I would like to know if I would be more pleasing to the guild as a DPS warrior (currently) or as a tank. Just let me know, I have been online and ungrouped about 30 mins before a scheduled raid for like the last 2-3 months. And have only been invited to about half the raids. I find this very frustrating, especially when there are spots open, and as soon as somone else logs on 1-2 mins AFTER the raid is scheduled to start they get the invite.
You wanted my opinion, there it is.
BouncinBetty
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Dubiuous
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4#
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Rank:Admin
Score:320
Posts:64
Registered:07/15/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/28/2007 6:27 AM)
I like the idea but as I said last night I would really like this run through a required signup list. I can run any time if I have enough notice. I will also be glad to help those who still need kara groups on non 25 man nights.
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Unsere
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5#
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Rank:Admin
Score:645
Posts:129
Registered:10/01/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/28/2007 6:37 AM)
Wow this is a little shock seeing what the officers were talking about all last week about the rumors that they were going to stop doing kara and they were completely untrue. Ive already stated my opinion in other posts that were going on this week when we were talking about starting the third kara group which I thought was a most important thing seeing that the majority of the hard core people that we keep talking about post every day about their real life commitments and the fact that they won't be around as much anymore. So what are we left with undergeared unprepared people. I myself may have the gear to progress (not sure I do) but I haven't even seen half of the bosses in Kara and I have been running it with the guild for two or three months. On top of not even seeing half the bosses I don't have half the loots I need from the ones I have seen. If I someone that goes to almost all of the karas and most of the 25 mans when the go don't have raid gear dropping for me I wonder how many more are suffering from lack of gear here or there.
We FINALLY got past gruul but we have not made it past anything else which makes me question weather we are ready to move forward or not. Maybe its because we aren't following the natrual course of progression but instead jumping to supposidly harder instances which with this last patch just got harder. In the end there are 25 slots and those will go to the 25 best geared well prepared people but we have alot more people then 25 that want to be raiding. We were almost to the point of starting that third group and there was another 10-20 people that aren't as close to having the gear to run kara but are eager to go now all those people besides the 25 that will be going are going to be left out of the "guild progression" because it will be a long time before we can run 2 25 man groups at the same time. You may keep your dedicated people but I think we will lose alot more people that COULD have been dedicated people if we continued with the guild support of the starting raid runs. Then what happens when our dedicated people all of a sudden have life changes which pull them from the game and then we are left without even 25 people to run those and by then have lost our would be up and coming people to guilds that do run kara. We have lost a lot of the higher geared people even over the last couple weeks that would have made up the super strong 25 man raids. I think there has to be a balance between the two to pull the plug completely on kara you lose alot of good players that could be helping out.
I know I will get strong opposition to this post from the leadership but thats just my opinion. If we had kara on farm status with gold and green team I could see this being a more viable option because everyone would be getting their gear alot quicker and actualy make a bigger contribution to the raid as whole. I am all for progression so I really do hope this works out. Some things I hope we see in the future are a schedule we stick to and a logical order in which to take the instances. Raid signups are another big part of it if people say they are going to be there they are more likely to show. There needs to be more website activity also because of the 100 or so active members we have in the guild I bet only 20 will get on and read this.
Hugs and Kisses
Unsere
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Unsere
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6#
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Rank:Admin
Score:645
Posts:129
Registered:10/01/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/28/2007 8:00 AM)
Also are we going to have gear requirments posted for the new places that we will be visiting and in what order are we going to be trying to tackle them. We had them posted for when we wanted people in kara so I am curious to see what the standard is going to be for the new places assuming people had their required kara gear.
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MartyMacGraves
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7#
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Rank:Admin
Score:11580
Posts:2316
Registered:10/26/2002
Time spent: 60 hours
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(Date Posted:09/28/2007 8:36 AM)
I totally supported this decision from the first minute I saw it, especially after the horrible raid attendance for the last couple of weeks. Kara has become a crutch for this guild. For people who have consistently shown up for raids, we should make an all-out effort to run Kara for the next two weeks, then say good bye to it (as a formal, scheduled guild event). Like UBRS and LBRS, Kara will always be with us. It should have been on PUG status long ago.
Why are we doing this now?
I support it for several reasons. First, the guild has a limited amount of time and energy to put into raids. Kara is sucking up about 80% of that time and energy, which should be dedicated to 25-man raids. Second, it has become a crutch - or a security blanket. It is very obvious to guild leadership that people are eager to log on when they think they will be escorted through Karazhan, but not so eager when they may have a tough fight or even (gasp!) a NEW fight which they will probably lose. Those people need to run their own raids, as they will never really help us move forward. More importantly though, people think they JUST HAVE TO HAVE those last few pieces of Kara gear before they move. Trouble is, if we don't stop sometime, we will NEVER get everyone everything they think they "need." Third, the Kara raid leaders are tired and burnt out. Imagine running VC 3 times a week every week for a month. Now multiply that by 10. That's about how Secretcow feels right now, how Levan felt three months ago and how I am starting to feel (Zez probably too but he can speak for himself). You just can't ask people to repeat the same content over and over and over. Finally, lack of progress, and running Kara over and over, is causing people to get bored, leave the guild, stop raiding or leave the game. In short, its time to move on.
Then how do I get the gear I need for Gruul/Mag/SSC/TK?
First, you are better-geared than you think you are. Without a doubt, there are 35+ toons in this guild that play regularly that are powerful enough for Gruuls and Mag. Knowledge of the fight and a strong competitive streak are far more important than gear. Second, there are plenty of ways to get gear without scheduled guild raids, like: PvP rewards, crafted items, heroic dungeons, Karazhan PUGs and of course the loot from the Gruul/Mag/SSC/TK instances you will run. Also, don't forget that Zul'aman is coming soon.
But I can't PUG Kara!!!!
Sure you can. It is happening all the time on our server, with success. Kara is simply two 5-man Heroic raids. People make too much of it, frankly. Now, if your real problem is that you would rather someone else did all the work scheduling the raid, organizing the raid, gettting the right classes together, etc., then I can only say this: its time to get down off the cart you have been riding and help us pull it.
Will any of the "old" Karazhan raid leaders be leading Karazhan raids any more?
I think there will be a real strong emphasis on Kara for the next two weeks, as a "last gasp" effort to try and get gear. That is what I think should happen anyway. After that, most of us will be taking a break, at least for a while. Some time in the future, I might PUG a Kara raid once in a while. At a minimum, we are all taking a good, long break from Kara, and after October 16, the entire focus of the guild will shift to 25-man raids.
So, what will the schedule be? How will it work?
Not sure yet. Here is what I think should happen. First, we need to select three nights per week which we set aside for 25-man raids. We will do NOTHING other than raid on those nights, and we will NEVER do 25-man raids except on those nights. Why? Because that way, people can schedule around it and have confidence that (1) there will be a raid that night (once we find our core raiding group) and (2) they won't ever miss a raid as long as they are online for those three nights. Personally, I think two nights should be on the weekday and the other should be on Saturday night, to appeal to as many people as possible. Tuesday-Thursday-Saturday was proposed and sounds good to me. We need to hear from you on that.
Second, I think we need to go back to signups on the dkp system, and we need assistant raid leaders to help decide who goes. We probably don't have a strong leader for every class right now, but someone suggested four "discipline leaders," one each for healers, tanks, ranged dps and melee dps. They would be responsible for monitoring performance, advising the raid leader who is going and who is not going and maybe even recruiting. I like that suggestion a lot.
Third, we need to reward dkp to those who are geared for 25-man raids, online and available at raid time, and yet are not chosen.
Fourth, if people are consistently failing to attend 50% of scheduled raids without some decent reason, they should lose their raiding privileges and we should recruit others or give other guild members a chance instead.
But I joined to do Karazhan!!!
Part of me is sympathetic. The other part of me, however, thinks that if you joined just to do Karazhan, you are holding us back. There will still be plenty of qualified people here to PUG Kara. Besides, if we kept doing Kara just because new recruits need it, WE WILL NEVER STOP DOING KARA AND WE WILL NEVER ADVANCE.
Specific Response to posts above:
BouncinBetty: I do feel bad for you. The problem is your class. DPS warriors are just not very useful in raids. If you were really pumping out the dps, we could squeeze you in more easily. If you were playing a class that is well-suited to 25-man raids, you would be invited. Its not personal. Its your class.
Unsere: You are MORE than well-geared enough for both Gruul and Mag on both your characters. I think you are a perfect example of an excellent player who is holding onto Karazhan unnecessarily. Yes, I tried to find a way to do 3 Kara groups. The whole point was to speed up the process of getting people geared up for 25-man instances. I think there are about 47-48 people on that list I created. 20 of the showed up on Wednesday. What does that tell you about the chances that plan was going to succeed? It was a perfect plan, except I still can't figure out a way to FORCE people to log on and play. I don't think there will be gear requirements. We will probably go if we have 7-8 healers, 2-3 tanks, 2-4 melee dps and 10-15 ranged dps online, and some reasonable chance at success given the gear of the 25 toons. Its pretty obvious, though, that you need mostly epics (PvP rewards, Kara, crafted gear, Heroic gear) to be successful in 25-man raids.
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Lead, follow or get out of the way.
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Elindriele
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8#
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Rank:Admin
Score:165
Posts:33
Registered:08/29/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/28/2007 8:44 AM)
I think this is a smart move. I hope people understand that this doesn't mean an end to their Kara raiding--it just means an end to putting all of our focus as a guild on Kara. I've been wanting to focus on the 25-mans for some time (this was one of the main reasons I left FWH), so I hope this takes us back in that direction. Unfortunately, my current schedule limits me to Mondays and Wednesdays for raiding, so I really hope you all decide to keep those (plus another day, of course) for our 25-mans. I can also arrange time to play on the weekends if that would help at all. Like Shark, I prefer using some sort of sign-up system and sticking to a more steady schedule, since I have to schedule out my game time more carefully now.
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MartyMacGraves
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9#
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Rank:Admin
Score:11580
Posts:2316
Registered:10/26/2002
Time spent: 60 hours
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(Date Posted:09/28/2007 9:08 AM)
By the way, the "Raid Analysis" link on our dkp system allows you to generate a report showing how many people have shown up for scheduled raids in the last 30 days (or whatever period of time you choose). Here are the results for Gruuls/Mag from 8/27/07 to 9/27/07, for instance. The columns are name, class, number of raids attended (there were 7), percentage of attendance and dkp awarded:
Now, Obflight and Difr are one player, so combine those. Further, some folks offered to come to raids but weren't invited. Finally, some haven't been with us for 30 days. Still, that's only 21 people who showed up for 50% or more of the scheduled raids. That's pretty sad given our numbers.
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Lead, follow or get out of the way.
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kamell
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10#
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Rank:Admin
Score:455
Posts:91
Registered:07/06/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/28/2007 9:39 AM)
I would like to know what the guilds definition of "Core raiders" is? Given my work schedule, There will be times I will not be able to make the 25 man raids. Myself as well as Unsere work a rotating 12 hour schedule. What I forsee is somone stepping up to take "command", if you will, for running the Kara raids. I know there is still gear in Kara that I do need. Some of which can certainly be supplemented with arena gear, but that will prolong the time I will receive it. I don't think getting the Kara gear you need will take a matter of months. I mean hell, I know of some people in the guild getting geared in one night. I know there is other avenues to getting gear and I do respect the fact the guild wants to progress. We need to progress in order to grow. But at the same time this is kind of a slap in the face to new comers. IMO, we should set times for our 25 man and maybe schedule Kara around those raids instead of dropping it to pug status. 25 mans are very important indeed. But we should maybe follow the progression of them as well(i.e. gruuls, Mags, SSC, then TK, moving on from there). I would love to see Hyjal and BT without a doubt, but let the horse lead the carriage, not visa versa. If some of this seems somewhat garbled, I do apologize. It is 2am and I am at work and extremely tired.
Thanks,
Ben
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The healaholic
Gankoholic up and coming
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Elindriele
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11#
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Rank:Admin
Score:165
Posts:33
Registered:08/29/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/28/2007 9:39 AM)
I'm a little skeptical of using lists like that to determine raid participation. For one, Zander isn't even on it, and he's been at almost every raid; I'm not sure how many other people are left off. Second, it doesn't allow for explanations, such as the fact that I had family in town during that time and couldn't raid, and thus makes some people look less dedicated than they really are. It also doesn't factor in those many days of late when we've shown up and the raid hasn't happened, or we've run Kara instead. I look like a semi-committed raider according to that list, yet I've been showing up faithfully for months (for no reward, since I haven't spent a single point of dkp), only missing when I absolutely had to. I'm guessing others are in the same boat. Emphasizing lists like that just causes unnecessary dissension and bad feelings, especially since almost all of the people with bad attendance are either no longer with us or have pressing real life reasons for not making raids consistently.
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Mysterios
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12#
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Rank:Admin
Score:1670
Posts:334
Registered:11/03/2002
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/28/2007 11:36 AM)
I suppose the list provides us with good information but not sure it allows for the fact that one's percentage may be lacking not because they weren't at the raid so much as they weren't invited to the raid.
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Mysterios Ways (50 Heroine-MLF)
Shintia (50 Wardeness-MLF)
Wickedness (50 Enchantress-MLF)
Vodoo (50 Animist-MLF)
Mysterious (49 Zerker-Gareth)
Sarcasm Ranger-MLF
Kindnesss Animist-MLF
Mysterios 60 Shaman (Archimonde WoW)
Mysterios 70 Mage (Stonemaul WoW)
Guest Starring as Time (50 Bard), Shinto (50 Druid) Noluk (50 Hero) Mistake (50 Mentalist) Felardih (50 Druid) Felaris (50 Chanter) and other miscellaneous misfits 
Lets go back to DAoC!!!!!!
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MartyMacGraves
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13#
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Rank:Admin
Score:11580
Posts:2316
Registered:10/26/2002
Time spent: 60 hours
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(Date Posted:09/28/2007 8:16 PM)
I would like to know what the guilds definition of "Core raiders" is?
I don't know of any "official" definition and I am not sure that one is necessary. Guilds who do have minimum raid participation requirements use 3/4ths others use 2/3rds. I personally think if you make 50% of the raids, you are a raider. That's just my opinion.
I don't think getting the Kara gear you need will take a matter of months.
So far, it has taken us about 6 months. Unless we move on, it will never end. Its time to cut the apron strings. That said, if you think you still need Kara gear, you will have 4 others nights per week to go for it. Plus, Zul'aman gear will be available.
IMO, we should set times for our 25 man and maybe schedule Kara around those raids
That is exactly what we do now. 25-man raids are set for Wednesday, Thursday and Monday at 6:30 p.m. server. Everyone shows up on Tuesday for Kara and then 20 show up on 25-man raid nights. In short, it isn't working.
But at the same time this is kind of a slap in the face to new comers.
We will always have newcomers. If we stayed in Kara because we have newcomers, we would never advance. In fact, that is pretty much exactly what we have done. Newcomers get geared, leave or quit, and more newcomers appear who want Kara gear so we have to start over. This is exactly the attitude that has gotten us stuck in place.
I'm a little skeptical of using lists like that to determine raid participation. For one, Zander isn't even on it, and he's been at almost every raid...
Is Zanderous registered at the dkp site? Under the name Zanderous? He is not showing up, and I can't really explain why.
It also doesn't factor in those many days of late when we've shown up and the raid hasn't happened.
Actually, most of the time I think we award dkp even if the raid does not happen.
Emphasizing lists like that just causes unnecessary dissension and bad feelings
No one is emphasizing anything. The list is just a fact. Make your own conclusions from it. Take it for whatever you think it is worth.
I suppose the list provides us with good information but not sure it allows for the fact that one's percentage may be lacking not because they weren't at the raid so much as they weren't invited to the raid.
That's why I said the following in my post: "Further, some folks offered to come to raids but weren't invited. Finally, some haven't been with us for 30 days." That is also why I believe that DKP should be awarded to anyone who shows up but is not invited to the raid (assuming that they are minimally geared and ready for the raid). That way, future lists such as this will more accurately reflect raid commitment.
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Lead, follow or get out of the way.
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Kaseem
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14#
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Rank:Admin
Score:635
Posts:127
Registered:09/15/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/28/2007 8:37 PM)
Im glad to see that we are finally going to put karazhan behind us, and start to see more of what the game has to offer. Sounds like the only thing we need to work on now is the exact schedule that we will follow for our raids.
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[url=http://armory.mmo-champion.com/] [/url]
[url=http://armory.mmo-champion.com/] [/url]
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Ironoak
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15#
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Rank:Admin
Score:370
Posts:74
Registered:10/27/2002
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/28/2007 9:22 PM)
3 nights a week for 25 man is great.
That being said on other nights I will still run Kara with any group needing a tank or off-tank/DPS. I really want to get the feral cat gear which I have passed most on to rogues and now find my dps lower than I would like. Of course this gear is all curator onward so will be a bit of a challenge. I would like to do Kara on Friday or Saturday as well if possible as I really do not have much interest in heroics.
On the 25 man I would like to see more natural progression. The eye is a long farm to get to one boss who now is harder. I would rather see Mags lair done. Once we know how it and Gruuls is likely one nights raid. From there I think we should focus on SSC.
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Sabeatha
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16#
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Rank:Admin
Score:55
Posts:11
Registered:05/19/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/28/2007 9:23 PM)
First off I just want to say that I do think that this is a good idea, I joined the guild right when BC came out so I didn't get to do all the raids when I hit 60.
I haven't seen all the bosses in Kara, but if I don't have to be saved to one for the guild, that will give me a change to be in a pug and possibly see the last few bosses.
I think im pretty well geared thanks to the guild letting me come to Kara, when someone didn't need gear from that boss.
I see this 25 man raids progressing and we will start to conquer these bosses.
Thanks WGW
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Lovelykitty
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17#
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Rank:Admin
Score:70
Posts:14
Registered:10/18/2003
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/28/2007 10:16 PM)
The only quarrel I have with this is that when i hit 70 I will i guess have to pug Kara and do some heroics so that I can get the gear i need to join yall. My expectations are that I will try and get to 70 within the next week or so. I tend to move fast through the game and i don't really take time out for instances till I hit Tenaris. but even then it's not much. I know were a lot of good spots are to get quests and lv up. it will just be a little slow till i hit 58-60 and be able to go to outland and start the fast paced stuff. I will work as hard as I can to get there cause I want to be able to finnaly do stuff with the guild. I didn't have the chance to do much on DAoC with the guild but I will make it so that I can on WoW. When I hit 70 I plan on either staying enchancement to get some spots for instances or go Resto cause I know healers always get spots for things. I have decent knowlage of what gear I will need to get into Kara spots and then what will be good for me to join in for G Lair. I hope to be up there with you soon and I wish I had already had a toon on this server a while back. You win some and lose some.
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I am Kitty hear me Roar!! Mreow!! =^-^=
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Alilee
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18#
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Rank:Admin
Score:20
Posts:4
Registered:06/23/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/28/2007 10:17 PM)
For as many negatives people may have the positived far out way them, Progression is the name of the game. In this game and others (Everquest & EQ2) I have seen complacency destroy guilds, As the nights for 25 mans are set we can plan around them IRL or let it be known who cant be there. In the past I have seen raid sign-ups be very effective for staffing the right characters with the right event.
Karazan is a great place to get gear, and I'm still holding out hope to get my warrior alt geared, so those raiding off nights I'm game for Kara as a throw together 
I'm looking forward to progressing as a guild, to see more content, I have noticed that WGW's learning curve is fantastic, so the idea of SSC and TK down isnt outside the realm of possiblilty soon!
End of my 2cents
Alilee
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Tiggs
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19#
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Rank:Admin
Score:45
Posts:9
Registered:07/13/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/28/2007 10:48 PM)
I'm all for it! It may make things tough at first, but I think it's the right direction to go. Organized Kara groups are really nice because they get people used to the style of raiding--helping get geared for bigger raids in more mays that one. Pugging Kara doesn't sound uber appealing given pugging a heroic is tragic most of the time, but I think it's probably a small inconvenience... I think that this whole decision will be a bit of a carrot for everyone, encouraging people to follow and move on as opposed to pushing everyone from behind. I'm hoping that those who are just at the attunement/getting geared phase will see it as encouragement to improve and not a lack of support by the guild. After all, it'll give everyone a better opportunity to do more in the long run.
I'm wondering if there's anything that might ease the transition for those who do need Kara, particularly those who are just hitting 70 and getting attuned... I don't see a need to have "official" Kara nights led by the same person with set groups, etc. but perhaps there's a happy medium between pugging Kara in the LFG channel and scheduled raid nights--organizing 10 people from anywhere can be a pain--perhaps if people wanted to organize their own raids, would they be able to put a signup on the guild calendar or on the raid board? Kind of a "Hey anyone else wanna run Kara tomorrow night? I need such-and-such boss" or whatever. Maybe 5 people would signup and they'd pug the rest, but it might be a nice option for those who come on, try to look for a group, and can't find one. That might help ease the "I can't get a group" frustration a bit. Of course I suppose people could do that anyway, but just an idea
ALSO! A note on my availability!!
I'd love to get a chance to do more of the 25-mans. I've been tutoring in the evenings but I finally got a full time teaching job (7th grade science, woot!) so I'll be easing out of my evening job. After next week I'm available to raid every evening (after 6 server time) except Tuesdays, and Friday-Sun I'm wide open.
Woot, onwards and upwards! BT here we come!
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difr
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20#
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Rank:Admin
Score:435
Posts:87
Registered:05/16/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/28/2007 11:41 PM)
I'll be short and sweet(Like my gnomes)! I am one of the biggest advocates of this plan. Secret I think you did a wonderful job with that post and Marty excellent follow up. I hear the concerns people have with this course and I kind of chuckle. Funny how leadership needs to have a good bead on what the guild thinks. I say this becuase your concerns are all the same ones we have talked about. All I can say is that I will be pushing for the next 2 weeks to help in that final set of kara runs, that I will be more than happy to help anyone get a grocery list of gear that will get them set reguardless of their class without kara, cheer you on as you are doing what the leadership did a long time ago in getting initiative to run your own kara groups and learn the fights, and I will be there to spend thousands of gold to learn and see new content. For all those people that have stuck around so long waiting for us to get to this path thanks you will be rewarded soon!
I AM SO EXCITED!!
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Following in the Rogue Tradition of Assassination.
You wish you could do this much dps in pigtails!
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SecretCow
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21#
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Rank:Admin
Score:725
Posts:145
From: USA 
Registered:02/24/2007
Time spent: 909 hours
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(Date Posted:09/29/2007 12:21 AM)
Thanks to everyone's replies so far, only 19 hours, and already 20 replies. The biggest thing I'm seeing so far is a large concern about planning how people will keep getting their karazhan raids done. Basically, however you want to is the answer. If you want to use guild calendar to post a raid, that'd be great. Anyone that wants to do karazhan after the 16th, go for it, but don't expect answers or invitations from the leadership. Become the leadership. However, the thing I stress, is members need to be careful here. Go ahead and do your other raids and runs, but we don't want people burning themselves out raiding 5-6 nights per week, as is becoming problematic now. Save yourselves for the 25-mans, and keep your spirits up; don't get sick of raiding because you've spent the last four days doing kara runs.
Again, I point out that a majority of the replies so far are concerns about karazhan. Move the topic if possible, and talk about the 25-mans, your thoughts on signups, what days work for you, how many days per week you want to raid, etc etc etc. Keep the discussion coming, it's helping immensely.
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Elindriele
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22#
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Rank:Admin
Score:165
Posts:33
Registered:08/29/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/29/2007 1:40 AM)
I'd like to see us back in Mag. While VR used to be "Loot Reaver" (who knows what it's like now), it was a lot of trash to clear to get to the boss. Mag may be a tough fight, but it's primarily tough because of coordination, which is something we really need to work on anyhow. If we can just get 2 or 3 warlocks to help us out, I think that fight would be great for us to learn. We should have enough tanks and high enough dps to have a good chance of success.
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thestinger
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23#
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Rank:Admin
Score:20
Posts:4
Registered:07/13/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/29/2007 1:46 AM)
First off i feel this is definately a step in the right direction. Secondly, it has to be done. We cant stay in the same spot we are at now with record breaking KARA runs and ultra fast GRUUL downings, although they are withought a doubt fun. We all strive for progression, why drool over the items linked in general chat when we can see them first hand. I completely support the decision by the leadership and cannot wait to see the green light the future holds.
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CasterKevin
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24#
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Rank:Admin
Score:30
Posts:6
Registered:09/20/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/29/2007 6:55 AM)
I think that moving on to 25 Mans and progressing is a great idea, although i am not geared for it i will gladly find my own means of running kara/heroics to get gear so i may help WGW in 25 man raids a.s.a.p.
i'm not exactly sure on gear req. for 25 mans but i'm sure that once i believe i'm at that lvl i can pm an officer in game and get his/her opinion on the matter
thnx WGW!
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Zezmo
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25#
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Rank:Admin
Score:4670
Posts:934
Registered:11/03/2002
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/29/2007 8:25 AM)
I of course support this plan 100%. When I first read Secret proposal on the officer boards, it was an epiphany. We have talked about what we need to do to progress until we have all gone squirrelly. But the answer was so basic, so direct; I could not believe we had not seen it before. If you want to move past Kara---stop making it the focus of our raid schedule. We have all ran 5 man instances, and by the time we are geared for Heroics, we are sick of those 5 mans. The same becomes true of the Heroics, and the same is true of Kara.
When I hit 70, the guild had already been in Kara for a few weeks. None the less, I was there the first time we saw Romulo and Julienne, the first time we downed the Curator, Chess, Ilhoof, Aran, the Prince, and even Nightbane. I was there when we downed King Maulgar, and Gruul for the first time too. I tell you, every one of those fights was a struggle. Every single one of them took several tries and some several weeks to be successful. We even messed up the chess event the first attempt. But I promise you success is all the sweeter for the effort it takes to achieve.
Folks, I personally have raided Kara every friggin week since last February. Never in my entire gaming career have I done one thing, for so long. Guess what, even with all that... There are Bosses I have not seen killed (Netherspite); there is gear I would still like to get. Well, when I read this plan, I realized, the only reason I "need" that gear is because we are not killing the tougher bosses in the 25 man raids, and not getting the real good loot. I, Zezmo, am done with Karazhan. To hell with that rat hole, lets move on to something interesting. If you think you will "miss out" on something you need from there.... You are wrong. What you really have been missing out on is the better gear we will now be getting in the coming months.
So I am reminded of last year, well last fall/winter. We realized that progression through the old world instances was needed. Well more like, it was our last chance to see them before BC. We put out a real effort, and we began to see new bosses and be successful as a raiding force. Then BC Came out, and we had a mad scramble to level.... Some did it very fast (coughlevanandmaxicough) others took their time (coughzezgettoseventyalreadycough). We are at that same juncture; Blizzard is releasing their next expansion early next year. When it hits the shelves, and we all scramble for 80, or heck maybe WHO will be out and we will all be playing that. When either of these happens, the time to see and enjoy these 25 man instances will be gone. The bottom line is, if we do not make this change, here and now, we never will, and we will never get a chance to do it.
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See you in the Woods...
WGW Classic Website
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Efourtay
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26#
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Rank:Admin
Score:215
Posts:43
Registered:01/04/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/29/2007 10:08 PM)
I am all for it. I totally want to move through end-game content and see what BC really has in store for us all. I mean, that is why we play this game right? Granted, some of us just like to pvp, but if that is your cup of tea, I don't see why this would bother you so much. And though we may never make it that far, I would really like to know that we at least tried.
I too have been raiding karazhan since March of last year and frankly, I'm tired of it. Yes there are a couple more pieces of karazhan gear that I still want/need but if we are ready to move on to the next phase then let us do it. I'll be honest to say that I was very close to canceling my WoW account at the beginning of the school semester due to a number of reasons: 1) the amount of great raiders we lost in a short amount of time because of lack of progression or personal issues 2) running karazhan every week and not seeing new content 3) just running out of things to do completely.
But I stayed in because not everyone has given up yet. This guild consists of really great people that I would really hate to let down. Those of us who have been in the guild and raiding since BC are getting frustrated. I know alot of people are concerned with trying to get gear and prepare themselves for 25-man raids but the fact is.. you dont need to be epiced out to run a 25-man raid. When we first started raiding Kara, the gear was crap. The stats were not much better than dungeon set blues! And many other guilds moved to 25man raids with a couple of epics and the rest blues. If they can do it, we can too. Skill, Strategy, Dedication > Gear. Having fun in WoW = Priceless (or $14.95/month) =P
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Jumping music, slick djs, fog machines and laser rays.
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Starlockk
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27#
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Rank:Admin
Score:55
Posts:11
Registered:07/18/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/30/2007 6:05 AM)
I definetly like this, I never got to see the end game content of pre-BC and would love to see TBC ones. I could still use some gear from kara, but most of that gear would get replaced by items found in the later 25 mans. I have also been reading the forums and saw that the new 10 man instance coming out soon... don't remember the name, will have gear slightly better than kara gear. Also, it is rumored that blizz is making a lower kara which means that we will be headed back to kara someday to see the new content. I'm always up for pugging kara because i haven't seen all of the bosses yet, so if anyone needs a mage just let me know. I'm looking forward to the change with great excitment. BT here we come
-Starlockk
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kamell
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28#
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Rank:Admin
Score:455
Posts:91
Registered:07/06/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:09/30/2007 3:20 PM)
Reply to : Ironoak
3 nights a week for 25 man is great.That being said on other nights I will still run Kara with any group needing a tank or off-tank/DPS. I really want to get the feral cat gear which I have passed most on to rogues and now find my dps lower than I would like. Of course this gear is all curator onward so will be a bit of a challenge. I would like to do Kara on Friday or Saturday as well if possible as I really do not have much interest in heroics.On the 25 man I would like to see more natural progression. The eye is a long farm to get to one boss who now is harder. I would rather see Mags lair done. Once we know how it and Gruuls is likely one nights raid. From there I think we should focus on SSC.
Sounds great to me Oak. I will always be up for running Kara as there are still a few items I need. Any non-25 man raid night I should be pretty much available for Kara or heroics...
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The healaholic
Gankoholic up and coming
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AldeaRuunya
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29#
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Rank:Admin
Score:920
Posts:184
Registered:04/18/2003
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/01/2007 1:49 AM)
My thoughts: When you can log on and see in non-guild chat people putting together Kara runs then you know that the guild no longer needs to put a focus on it. Right now we can pretty easily blast our way through Kara. We have no way to test someones ability if a majority of the raid is way past the content. I personally don't like to give handouts to people who haven't put in the effort. For awhile now that is what we have been doing. People have been using WGW as a way to get geared and then move on to a more progressed guild. If I just look at the hunters, there are 3 since we started raiding Kara who I can count on to show up. We have had over 10 in Kara since we started, 30% geared and dependable is crap. I know some have schedule conflicts and would like to show up more. Hopefully this will get people interested in WGW and we can see more.
Onto my schedule. I will be gone every other weekend. This last weekend was a "gone" weekend. I recently picked up a 2nd job and the way my scheduling works for that is if one job doesn't have work the next day, the other one usually does. I work in damage restoration so if something bad happens I may have to work late. My newest job tends to work a little later just because they have a lot of work from the rain we had over the summer which caused a lot of nice moldy homes. Other then that I'm usually home 6-630 server.
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DAoC
~Ruunya~Aldea~Ayha~
WoW
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Tigg
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30#
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Rank:Admin
Score:430
Posts:86
Registered:05/07/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/01/2007 9:15 AM)
This is great, guys. Secret, very nice post; I applaud your leadership abilities. I am, of course, in favor of this. I love learning these new fights, so lets get on it! As for my schedule, I am fairly flexible as long as we pick a schedule and stick to it. Fri, Sat are not as good for me, but if I have to, I can be at least semi reliable on those days. Any weekday, I am good.
On a side note, Jakkin and I were talking tonight, and the only thing I will regret from this is that 0 of our mages came out of karazhan with the Lightning Capacitor trinket. I know this sounds like a 'boo hoo...get over it' comment, but I am looking at this from a raid dps perspective. This trinket is considered overpowered by most: for most mages it will constitute 6-10% of their dps for any given fight. This means a 6-10% increase in dps from any mage that has this trinket.
I am absolutely not griping about this, I am just pointing out something that could be a significant increase to our raid dps. Most t6 mages are still using this trinket depending on their spec. Unfortunately, being short on locks in this guild ever since I have been here (1.5 yrs ish), we haven't downed Illhoof much.
Anyway, I just thought I would share this since it seems like a great deal of dps for our raid, but I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea, I am VERY excited about this decision. All of us get SO tired of logging on every night a 25 man is scheduled only to have to settle for heroics or dailys or some other such boring rubbish
Looking forward to a great few months of raiding end-game BC
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