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Icenine
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1#
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Rank:Admin
Score:255
Posts:51
Registered:09/01/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/15/2007 10:25 PM)
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Ironoak
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2#
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(Date Posted:10/16/2007 1:50 AM)
That is nice gear but, I agree it pretty much kills the need for Kara and some of the 25 mans as this gear is better for many pieces (speaking from a feral druid perspecive)
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Efourtay
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3#
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Rank:Admin
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(Date Posted:10/16/2007 3:07 AM)
holy moly. looks like someone here will be doing more heroics... teehee.
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MartyMacGraves
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4#
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Rank:Admin
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(Date Posted:10/16/2007 6:11 PM)
Reply to : Ironoak
That is nice gear but, I agree it pretty much kills the need for Kara and some of the 25 mans as this gear is better for many pieces (speaking from a feral druid perspecive)
EXCEPT - Kara bosses will now drop badges. So will Zul'aman bosses (and if I am reading things correctly, Zul'aman trash too). I see this as simply an expansion of the different ways you can find gear to fill holes in your set, which is a positive step forward.
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Lead, follow or get out of the way.
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Icenine
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5#
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(Date Posted:10/17/2007 9:01 AM)
That is correct. I do know for sure that Karazhan will drop Badges of Justice from each boss; however, I am unsure to whether or not the new 10 man will but im sure so. But the point im making is for the folks who are in SSC/TK/MH/BT, this is almost a slap in the face just as it was a slap in the face to everyone who got gear from Pre-BC gear. No this doesn't apply to our guild but and is infact a good thing since it will help push slower guilds forward which is Blizzard's intent so more game content can be seen by the masses and keep player interest. This gear is extremely good and is definatly comparable to what i've seen drop from the later raids. As a final note this is a positve thing for everyone this is our opportunity to push forward in progression yeah it sucks for those who have worked hard to get to where they are but is in the end irrevalent to our cause.
On a personal note, yes I did say that I felt like I needed to take a break from raiding and I would try out doing other things like PvPing and Arenas. However, my true passion in this game is to raid and I would like to continue raiding. I have signed up to raid with the guild and I understand that sign-ups are crowded but I think it is wrong of yall to decide that I don't have just as much a right as anyone else to participate in the raids we are going on right now. Granted yes I do have better gear than most of the members of the guild but that shouldn't determine whether or not someone gets to raid. If that person signed up to go and is online ready to participate then they should have just as equal of a right to be in the raid. And yes there are things I need in Gruuls Lair. Seeing as we lack tanks in the guild I have decided to resume being protection specced in the desire to "Help" the guild. And the Tanking shoulders legs and Shield are 3 very good upgrades to what I am currently using. We have a DKP system for a reason. People who show up and participate in raids earn the right to recieve drops. Lets try to remember that and let that decide who does and doesn't deserve something.
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Bath
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6#
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Registered:10/27/2002
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/17/2007 11:34 AM)
This may not be the right thread to bring this up but I want to add/respond to Ice's last post here.
I finally hit 70, got my kara key frags and am working on finishing attunement. And, I did sign up for Gruul's lair, even though my gear is not the best, I was here, ready, and was early at that. Marty told me that BECAUSE of my lacking gear I couldn't go. I'm confused. Ice says he has gear but doesn't get to go, I don't have gear and don't get to go, so really, who gets to go? Only the "special" people? It made no difference to me at that point as I have tons of other stuff to work on, but still, reading Icenine's post makes me feel uncomfortable about how, we as a guild, are going about choosing the raiders.
Throughout many games this guild has gone through, at least from DAoC on in my experience, there have always been complaints of an "elite" core and I'm sure I was accused of being in that core. I never really saw that until now, how someone could perceive that. I'm not complaining so much as I am just saying, there are many who are here, ready, and willing, eager even to be raiding.
That all being said, I know my main toon here has a long way to go. I have lots of rep farming to do so I can do heroics and whatnot. I was a late-starter in this game but think I've shown you all my determined attitude to get there, so I can "play with the gang." After all, that is why I'm here, I love WGW, and will always do what I can to contribute to the quality and fun of our guild and our game time together.
Oh, and Ice, that Staff I picked up tonight is far better than what is offered in the new content above ;p So, thanks again for helping me get that and the belt 
~Bath
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Tigg
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7#
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Rank:Admin
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Posts:86
Registered:05/07/2007
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(Date Posted:10/17/2007 8:50 PM)
I 100% think that people who have recently turned 70 should not be in Gruul's. That is not discrimination; there are definite gear requirements. Unlike Kara, where a few skilled people can carry the rest through, Gruul's is different (obviously...look what happened this week). Secret has been giving people standby dkp if they are ready and willing to go to Gruul's regardless of how their gear is. I think this is nice and all, but I think there should be gear requirements even for standby dkp. I busted my butt to get the best possible gear I could even before I went to Karazhan, and it was months before I saw Gruuls, so it is hard for me to feel compassion for new 70s that complain about not getting to go to Gruuls.
As for Ice's comment, I understand your point, and I think you should have as much right as anyone, but some weeks people are just going to have to be satisfied with standby dkp. That is how it works. And you may need some gear from Gruul's, but if taking someone else keeps us from trashing a t4 shoulder token because everyone else in the raid has that particular token and we choose to take someone who could use it, then I say that is the greater good.
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cerelia
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8#
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Rank:Admin
Score:75
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Registered:09/16/2007
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(Date Posted:10/18/2007 12:34 AM)
This thread took a odd turn.
Badges of justice gear. Ok they did not make a complete set for everyone so kara gear will still be used its not wiping kara off map.
75 badges for legs and chest and another i think . Common if you fork out 150 badges for 2 items you deserve it. they are tough to come by atm and i do understand they will get easier. ok kara lets say you kill 8 bosses ya get 8 badges a week. and ya do 1 heroic a day wich around 3 possibly 4 if ya do mech. thats 29 badges ISH a week and will take you 2 weeks and a half to get 1 item. That is not a hand out if anyone is thinking that. and yes there are people that can do them over and over and over and diff heroics. more power to ya, thats alot of work.
I dont want to hit 2nd subject to hard becuase of it should have its own thread, but people cant go into gruuls lair with 90% blues. I preped my self for kara with alot of epics before i ever went and i mean at least 5 epics and all blues. that was little overkill but it was to pull my own weight. its ok to go into kara with all blues it can be done, but it makes it harder. I look at gruuls lair as a movment for people past kara. I have tried gruuls lair with 25 non kara geared people and omg it doesnt work well. there should be a requirement for gruuls lair no questions asked and mag.
If you set back and say i have better blues then epics atm and there are no upgrades i bet you anything there is another of your class to tell you that your are wrong.
Im not saying anyone is but its nice to be able to skip certain raids and just jump into better gear. and remember other people have crap load of dkp over new people that dont have T4 legs or other gear so all the new people need to be worring about is earning dkp, wich is were i stand. now there are items that they are looking at that ive seen that they make sure someone goes that can use the item. imagin how much effort that takes and set up raid and run it. thats alot of work
25man raids and 40 + people on. ok thats 15 people that wont go. ive been in that 15 people and understnad why. eventualy you will get the gear cuz you will go in with alot of dkp that you earned on standby or you will go in get gear and have no dkp forever.
but now that ive talked about the wrong subject more then original im gonna shuddup.
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Bath
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9#
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Registered:10/27/2002
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/18/2007 2:27 AM)
Hey, I'm just trying to figure out how to get the gear. I don't work well with contradiction and was seeing it here so, just trying to figure it out. I agree, if you are going into a raid and there you have to carry some heavy requirements for keeping folks alive it is in part gear dependent as I have experienced a bit myself. However, gear is only part of the story folks, SKILL is involved too. I carried the BM instance last night with a primarily +600 bonus to healing just fine (mostly greens), in fact exceptionally well. Only once or twice did anyone get below half health and we only wiped at the end because someone's computer froze - we lost a powerhouse, so I got aggro and died. Anyway, I'm just saying gear should not be everything for a raid that someone needs gear from in the first place. That's all, and yeah, sorry for the threadjack ;p
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Tigg
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10#
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Rank:Admin
Score:430
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(Date Posted:10/18/2007 6:32 AM)
Reply to : Bath
Hey, I'm just trying to figure out how to get the gear.
This really surprised me, Bath...just 8 threads below this one I laid out EVERY piece of healing gear you need, per your request, so I don't see how you are still asking this.
I don't work well with contradiction and was seeing it here so, just trying to figure it out.
I really don't see any contradiction. Ice has just come back to this guild, and I am thrilled that he did, but even he knows that he shouldn't take precedence over the players who have stuck with this guild and worked hard for this guild. You did not get an invite simply because your gear is not good enough for Gruul's. Kara is much more forgiving, but personally, I don't think you are geared enough for Kara. All it takes is a bit of effort (go back and re-read that list I gave you) to be more than geared for kara and very close to being geared for Gruul. Being in mostly greens just will not work.
I agree, if you are going into a raid and there you have to carry some heavy requirements for keeping folks alive it isin partgear dependent as I have experienced a bit myself. However, gear is only part of the story folks,SKILLis involved too.
I very much agree with you here. WoW is probably 70% skill and 30% gear, but you can't totally ignore that 30%...which, when you try to get into a raid with mostly greens, you are ignoring ANY gear requirement. Skill will not carry you through this much of a drastic lack of gear.
I carried the BM instance last night with a primarily +600 bonus to healing just fine (mostly greens), in fact exceptionally well. Only once or twice did anyone get below half health and we only wiped at the end because someone's computer froze - we lost a powerhouse, so I got aggro and died.
I am sorry, but comparing BM to Gruul's is almost laughable. I am not trying to provoke you in this post, or make you angry, so I hope you don't take offense. I am just trying to tell you why you were not invited to Gruul's and what you can do to get invited next time. Go back over the list of gear I gave you; they are all fairly easy to obtain. I would also suggest talking to OBflight/Difr/Tyrjin...he is very knowlegable in any class he plays, and he is a very good healer.
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Elindriele
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11#
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Rank:Admin
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(Date Posted:10/18/2007 7:49 AM)
I forgot to reply to the druid gear post, but Tigg's list is quite good. You may also want to reference http://druid.wikispaces.com/Healing+Gear+List. Keep in mind that on Tuesday, we had the rare situation of having too many geared healers on--we didn't even have to use Martee or Obflight (not that both aren't excellent healers--just that Ytram and Difr prefer, I think, to bring their dps characters). And Secret did bring quite a few new players to the raid, so the guild was in no way being elitist or clique-ish. Tigg is correct about the gear discrepancy--you should really have +1000 healing and over 9k mana self-buffed just for Kara. Skill is certainly important, but it won't keep you from running out of mana faster than you can pot up; it also won't do much to get a tank with close to 20k hit points back to full health before he takes another big hit. Gruul is usually around a 7 minute fight, so you need big enough heal numbers and a large enough mana pool to last.
If you have questions about gear or raiding with a druid, feel free to ask me, Oak, or Kamell, although Kamell is currently the resident expert on playing a resto spec. He can give you a good idea of the numbers he had going into Gruul's and what is necessary to fill a healer role adequately. To give you some sort of comparison, I have 1450 +heal and about 10k mana self-buffed in my heal gear as a feral druid with no heal talents. Even as resto spec, I don't think that gear would allow me to be more than mediocre at healing the Gruul fight.
Fortunately, gearing up for resto is fairly easy in Kara--try to get into a guild pug or a regular pug as soon as you can! =)
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Icenine
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12#
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Rank:Admin
Score:255
Posts:51
Registered:09/01/2006
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/18/2007 10:18 AM)
I know there are still questions lingering in some of your minds of why I would want to come back to a guild just pushing past Karazhan after being in 2 guilds who were farming SSC/TK. In fact I remember when Tickles disbanded, I had asked one of the officers (I won't point fingers) if I could rejoin the guild and I was turned down. The response I received was "Why should we let you back in when you're just going to leave again..." I believe this was a reflex response due to another member of the guild who had also left and came back only to leave again for "A Better Opportunity". I know this is one key reason that I'm being placed on a lower priority of getting in raids and if I were in your position I probably would feel the same."Why give someone drops that someone else needs when he is probably just going to leave again".
Ice has just come back to this guild, and I am thrilled that he did, but even he knows that he shouldn't take precedence over the players who have stuck with this guild and worked hard for this guild.
Before I left this guild, I worked my best to try and help get our guild Kara ready, tanking instances for folks so they can get gear and attunements completed. It was frustrating seeing many of those who I and others had worked hard to help get gear and attuned leave or just give up because we were stagnating. It even went so far as a few of us spending somewhere around 400-500g a raid to get people flasks and pots for boss encounters we were stuck on in desperation that we could down it and see a new encounter after a month of wipes. Then it came to a point where we played with the idea of doing two Kara groups. From there it grew into a fight over who came with what group and who stole who's priest or mage. At that point there was a division in the guild. This does sound selfish on my part but honestly it was frustrating to see people who you helped to get to a certain point get picked up by another group and you're basically left with a fresh group who has never seen the bosses putting you back where you were two months ago. I felt like I was being cheated or getting the short end of the stick for the work that was put in. And it was out of that frustration that I left when I was presented with an offer to join the second top guild on the server. But the point I'm driving at in this rant is that even though I left out of frustration and the mindset that I deserved to the right to be selfish... there is no question that I worked hard for this guild.
As far as that question of why I came back instead of joining another guild like Fallen or The Machine (the newly reformed TNC/Ruin guild) is this, yeah it was cool getting to see new things getting nice gear etc. but being in a raiding guild is a completely different experience and one that eventually grows old. Everyone gets to a certain point of progression then something happens they start going backwards and can't handle it so they disperse looking for the "next best thing". Despite the low point that we or I was at when I left the guild. I knew that I still had friends here and I wanted to come back to be with them. I put aside what had happened before between myself and others and look back at what was positive about being a part of this guild. I've been with this guild through great times and down and dirty lows that would have torn apart other guilds yet this guild has been able to persevere through this and stick together. That something that is rarely found and something I again wanted to be a part of.
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Zezmo
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13#
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Rank:Admin
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(Date Posted:10/18/2007 7:59 PM)
When I was running Kara Green group, it was typical to have 15 people who wanted the 10 slots that were available. Every week I had to choose, who (class and person) could make the raid successful, who had not gone in ahwile and should be given a chance, and who is there every time they are needed. Tough decisions, but one thing that was for sure..no matter who I chose, at least 5 people were left out. Sometimes they were understaning, sometime they cried a lot, a couple times they even quit the Guild.
The same goes for our 25 man raids - the same balancing act. Class, Person, Consistancy, Opportunity - tough calls every time. This is why being a leader sux.
Tuesday, we took too many new people, and the raid failed for that - period.
As for the gear, nice, but not impressive. Ok stats, and such, but they all lack "special abilities". A lot of Kara geat has Procs to go with the nice stats.
So I see this stuff as a good way to fill a few holes. But not a good way to gear an entire character.
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See you in the Woods...
WGW Classic Website
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Bath
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14#
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Registered:10/27/2002
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/20/2007 3:28 AM)
Sorry and forget I even brought it up. I still don't know everything there is to know. It's a big game with lots to learn, always. I have memory probs these days from all the damn meds I have to take for my back so please forgive me - I'm doing the best I can. I stick my head out and open my mouth before I should of so sorry again. As my title to the left says, Nooblet. I've never been in Gruuls so I don't know...how can I know if I can't go? Just asking for the opportunity. I was not disappointed/upset that I didn't get to go to gruuls - I said that. I was surprised by what Ice had to say is all.
Yes, there is contradiction: Gear requirement to go versus needing gear. If Ice has gear and can't go, that's contradictory. Balancing a group is very important, I know this. Whatever...I'm really sorry I said anything now.
Tigg, thanks for that gear post, some can be crafted, others drops from heroics and stuff and I have lots of farming to do to get to heroics. Whatever. I now know there are other places to get gear from, which I researched after my post. Go ahead and laugh at me and mock me all you want if it makes you feel better - how am I supposed to know what is a good comparison to Gruuls if I've never been?! Please refrain from being an asshat with me unless you want the same treatment in return. I know you said not to take offense, but maybe next time you could try to say what you have to say without being offensive...
~Bath
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Tigg
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15#
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Rank:Admin
Score:430
Posts:86
Registered:05/07/2007
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(Date Posted:10/20/2007 7:12 AM)
Bath-
I am sorry I offended you. Your original posts were a bit aggressive towards the raid leadership and I thought it was unfair. This caused my reponses to be a bit aggressive in return. I am not really sure what 'asshat' means  , but I am sorry I provoked you. I know you are wanting to help the guild, so if you need help getting any of the gear you need, just ask me. Hope to see you in raids someday soon.
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Levan
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16#
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(Date Posted:10/20/2007 10:56 AM)
If anyone is interested in joining the WGW elite group of cool kids who always get everything they want, raid spots, drops, winning lottery tickets in real life, please contact Levan in game. We are a very tight clique and not everyone can join (or we lose our double standards and favoritism) but all are welcome to apply and be denied. Our current members KNOW who they are ;>
That is all.
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gmacon24
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17#
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Rank:Admin
Score:20
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Registered:05/18/2007
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(Date Posted:10/20/2007 7:02 PM)
Actually, just send GJ a tell in game. I have a plan to overthrow the leadership of WGW and rule WoW! If you want to be part of the new "elite" WGW just wait. The revolution is on it's way! And that gear sucks for hunters, everyone hates us. Why is everyone complaining? If you can't get into Gruuls, go get some better gear. Norwegian chicks are hot. TRUST ME. See you in game some time
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AldeaRuunya
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18#
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Rank:Admin
Score:920
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Registered:04/18/2003
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(Date Posted:10/20/2007 9:21 PM)
I would like everyone to take a deep breath. Hold it in, keeping holding it, count to 3. OK let it out.
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DAoC
~Ruunya~Aldea~Ayha~
WoW
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MartyMacGraves
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19#
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Rank:Admin
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Time spent: 60 hours
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(Date Posted:10/20/2007 10:57 PM)
To Bath:
From the post entitled "Why didn't I get into that raid?" which I recommend you read:
"If you find yourself not being invited to a raid, there is a right way and a wrong way to deal with that disappointment. In my opinion, the wrong way is to bitch and moan over guild chat or run to the boards and start pointing fingers. The right way is to ask the raid leader or your class leader for some time when he is available, get on Ventrilo and talk about why you weren't chosen, and what you can do to increase your chances at being chosen next time. You might be very surprised at what you hear. Perhaps the raid leader had some bad information. Perhaps it was just an oversight. Perhaps you have a weakness that you aren't recognizing. Perhaps there were just too many players of your class already in the raid."
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Lead, follow or get out of the way.
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Sheltonator11
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20#
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Rank:Admin
Score:35
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Registered:09/10/2007
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(Date Posted:10/21/2007 8:33 AM)
this thread seems to be discussed and complete... but i was also wondering, what is an asshat?
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AldeaRuunya
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21#
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Rank:Admin
Score:920
Posts:184
Registered:04/18/2003
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/21/2007 4:48 PM)
When you kill someone you take off your clothes and sit on their head.
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DAoC
~Ruunya~Aldea~Ayha~
WoW
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Bath
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22#
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Registered:10/27/2002
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:10/22/2007 9:09 AM)
Okay, first, to understand the term "asshat" please refer yourselves here: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=asshat
Second @ Marty: I have read that post about raid invites a couple times Marty and you should have directed your post to Ice, not me. The first time I signed up for a raid, you and I discussed what I needed to accomplish gear wise for being a raid healer and I really appreciated what you had to say. I have said over and over here, I was NOT disappointed about not getting invited to the raid. I read Icenine's initial post here and was left feeling uncomfortable about what HE said about not getting invited to raids. This is not about me, or my presumed disappointment about raid invites as it is about what Icenine was expressing, and I have hear that sentiment from others as well. I saw a contradiction about raid invites and felt the need to bring attention to it.
THIRD: I know I am not adequately geared for raids and am working on that by many means including the gear advice from Tigg specifically for me. I do appreciate your input there Tigg so thanks. But next time you feel a knee-jerk reaction to something I say, ask me to explain myself to make sure you are understanding me fully. That will avoid any potential offenses.
Lastly, what I was trying to bring up, but did so unsuccessfully, was I guess about leadership in general. Tigg, you are not only representing the raid leadership but this council and past councils as well. Being a past council member, I do have something to say on this topic. I remember when the primary goal of WGW was to have fun and play with friends and family - it's in our charter to some degree. As far as I know, WGW has NEVER been about being a "leet" guild. I remember when we used to have GUILD meetings, not just council meetings but guild meetings where everyone had a say and an opportunity to vote. I see that we have lost this bit of democracy in our current leadership and it makes me kinda sad.
From our charter:
2.0 Purpose
In maintaining this online gaming guild in multiple massively multi-player online role-playing games the fundamental guiding principles of honor, loyalty, and courage remain our core Values.
The purpose of this charter is to provide a framework for the perpetual management of the Warriors and Guardians of the Woods (WGW), which is an international gaming organization whose goal is to provide an enjoyable gaming atmosphere for our members in multiple online games.
While I appreciate and even like our current direction towards doing more raids, I feel we are lacking some leadership in preparing our lower levels and new 70's for this goal, thereby creating an unenjoyable atmosphere for some. That is why I sent a PM to Secretcow offering my services in whatever capacity I can to help fill this void.
So, now that I feel like I have more tactfully said what I have to say, I hope that I am more understood by those of you who are newer to this guild than myself, and that we can move in a more positive direction of inclusive membership for all.
Thanks.
~Bath
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DoorDAoC
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23#
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Rank:Admin
Score:325
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Registered:11/10/2002
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(Date Posted:10/22/2007 10:16 AM)
asshat? 
The largest problem I see is this is a reoccurring problem. The system isn't working properly. If it was...there wouldn't be the same problem constantly popping up. And yes we as a guild have tried educating our members consistently about this problem, but maybe we're going about it the wrong way.
If a child isn't understanding the problem...you don't just give them the answer...you have to guide them through the problem and arrive at an answer. Otherwise they'll never truly learn what the problem is.
I'm really not sure what the solution would be, and honestly maybe there isn't one. But that isn't a reason to stop searching for one...or trying to reach further understanding. The only hope for the problem to be solved is through open discussion...not telling people how we individually perceive it to be.
I am in the "it's way harder than people realize to run guild events" boat. But our rhetorical "if you don't like it...step up and lead" standard also has never worked. Would it be possible for us to make a guide or possible have a council member in charge of helping promote member events? We've always left that to the boards...but like more than what 10% of the guild uses these boards?
~OMGWTF Sak made a post
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Door: "QUICK HELP I poked at something and now it wants me dead!!!"
Grizzli: "The eyes Door!!! Go for the eyes!!!"
ahhh...nastalgia...
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MartyMacGraves
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24#
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Time spent: 60 hours
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(Date Posted:10/22/2007 6:26 PM)
For those who haven't read all the posts in this chain, here is the Cliff Notes version:
Dammit others will now have fun. That sucks. I am leet and I don't want anyone else to be leet.
We need to start collecting badges
By the way, I left the guild because I wanted to explore the full extent of my leetness. Please invite me to raids again.
Why am I not invited to raids? I have been playing for two months, after all. You guys are elitists. I love this guild.
You aren't ready for raids. Get some gear and show you know how to play.
You really need to get geared up to raid.
But my skills are uber. Why am I not invited to raids?
No really, you need gear, just like I told you in other posts. And your skills aren't really uber yet.
Yeah, you really do need some gear to raid.
I left before because I wanted to be as leet as possible, but leet guilds usually are filled with leet jerkwads and they disbanded anyway so now I am back. This guild rocks. Please invite me to raids again.
Ummm, running raids is really not very easy, and you really do need some better gear.
Stop being mean to me. I want to go on raids.
Err sorry. I am happy to help you get gear, and I think the leaders are doing fine.
Quit whining, for God's sake.
Go get gear.
Take it easy folks.
Go read the post about getting into raids.
Wut?
I wasn't complaining about not being in raids. The leadership sucks. You need to appoint someone to the job of getting me gear so I can raid. What, you expect me to do that? That's not fun for me. Its YOUR job to get me gear.
Yeah! And I need someone appointed to the job of getting me gear too! And organize raids for me too!
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Lead, follow or get out of the way.
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SecretCow
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25#
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Rank:Admin
Score:725
Posts:145
From: USA 
Registered:02/24/2007
Time spent: 909 hours
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(Date Posted:10/22/2007 7:42 PM)
Thread locked, this has gone on long enough, points were made and concluded, let it stop :p
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