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Levan
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1#
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Rank:Admin
Score:985
Posts:197
Registered:04/19/2005
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:07/14/2007 10:36 PM)
I don't get it Danlin. You say our Leadership isn't helping our membership on an individual level then you go on to list at least 2 Leaders who have helped you alot. So you make a point, then disprove your own point using yourself as an example /scratches head. You use the word caveat to explain this I suppose, but then you should have added another 50-100 caveats to be even close to being accurate.
I guess your main point is we as Guild Leaders aren't helping "less experienced" players develop faster ?? We don't committ enough time to running with "newer 70's" ?? All I can say man...is WOW (not the game ;>
Just look at the glist on off raiding times/nights I generally see Guild Leaders running something with/for someone on a regular basis. Look at the job Difr and Shark have done with the Rogues, all the work they have put into making the Rogues possibly the most able and reasonable group to play with. Frankly I used to be against bringing a Rogue to most of Kara...these guys are so good we take 2 sometimes 3 now. These guys bend over backwards to help WGW in many ways. Look at the Job Difr has done with the mages, all of a sudden our Mages CAN dps. As far as Warriors go.....I know Secret does everything he can to help folks find better gear and instruct on tanking mechanics. The need for more tanks is coming, bosses like Mag and Vashj ?? Bootz and Marty have the Hunters in the best shape WGW hunters have ever been in. Zez and Munch have been working with the priests and several of them are coming along nicely. Myst, christ what can ya say about Myst except that she bends over backwards every damn day to help anyone that needs it, to the point that she jeopardizes her own enjoyment of the game. Hell sometimes I log on with the simple goal of finding something fun for Myst to run before she gets caught up helping other people again, I should probably make this a more frequent personal objective. I completely reject your criticism of our Guild Leadership, it is not accurate, it is unfair and simply wrong.
You don't like the direction our Guild is moving in?? Well I LOVE it. I only wish we were moving faster. What you should/could have criticized the leadership for is the lack of Class Advisors for Pallies, Locks, Shammies, Druids. Frankly we haven't identified the Leaders for these classes and we have committed as a group to not just naming someone for the sake of having one. We won't name a Class Advisor unless we are convinced of their committment to the Guild and its membership and their availability to live up to these committments.
You plead the case of the "less experienced" Well sit back in your chair, close your eyes and try to wrap your head around the idea of being one of the "Core Raiders" being one of the folks that have been running the same 10 man instance for 5 months. One of the people who have raided 4 hours a night 5 days a week who have to wipe repeatedly because 2 new people are at the Shade and move during the Flame Wreath despite being told half a dozen times before the fight NOT to. Being one of the folks that goes to a 25 man instance and looks at 4-8 people who are there and havent even bothered to get good Dungeon Blues. Is it fair to the Core Raiders that we have to fill a 25 man group with people who arent committed enough to their own toons to get decent gear before they join a raid ? Of course not......oh wait....according to your premise it is the fault of the Leadership and the Core Raiders because we didn't run that person through a bunch of 5 mans to get them geared. What was I thinking. Just so I am clear....exactly how many hours should each Guild Leader spend spoonfeeding gear to each new player ?
Put yourself in the shoes of our Core Raiders, folks who could easily get into Tickles, Fallen or whatever advanced raiding Guild but choose EVERYDAY to stay with and help WGW progress. You bash these people....well I APPLAUD them. I celebrate each and every one of them for their committment to WGW, it may not be enough for you Danlin but it is more than enough for me.
Our Guild has folks of many different play styles, time availability and frankly skill level at playing WoW. Simply put, we do the best we can with what we got. Too many people come to Guilds with their hand out asking for help/gear/items etc. And ZOMG they don't get it. Everyone logs on with with their own personal goals almost everyday so when GmemberX says in gchat "Need DPS for run XYZ" and gets no response it really isn't suprising. Are people supposed to stop working on their own projects everytime a gmember needs help ? In an ideal world that would be great............but it isn't realistic. I submit you average gmember gets more help in WGW that 95% of the WoW Guilds out there. If you are a person who is reading this and feels like WGW has let you down....gquit and good luck to you
Danlin you say our Leaders don't help enough.......I and others say many of the "less experienced" don't help themselves enough. People complain they can't get a Guild group.....boohoo. I pugged my entire Attunement quest line except for an attempt at BM which we did with all WGW a looooooong time ago got pwned......I pugged it and we one shot it the next day. Did I sit and whine in Gchat ?? No, I got off my butt put together a group and did it with strangers, learned a couple things and came back and started running it with WGW to get them attuned. Do pugs suck? Yeah often they do.....one benefit however is occassionally you find yourself in a pug comprised of great players from high-end raiding guilds and you get to blow through an instance and learn a few things.
Noone gets a group they want for a run they want when they want it all the time. Hell I pugged heroics for while because we didn't have enough folks to fill 2 heroic mechs for secret and I everyday. We have even picked up puggers for our 5 mans and eventually recruited them into the Guild.....so pugging isn't all bad.
As far as our Alliance with FWH well it isn't a new thing. FWH was with us in ZG, AQ20 and MC every raid back in the day. Some of my favorite people to Raid with are in FWH. Raids with FWH's "elite" and WGW's "elite" will help us progress faster and it will be just like kara was. We ran kara with a tight group, progressed then split into 2 groups. There is no reason we can't field 2 25 man raids between the 2 guilds. Will people be patient enough to wait? /shrug I don't know. But it is ridiculous for us to be stuck on Gruul because of a lack of dps. Because we cant get the right 25 people online at the same time. Try keeping a group of Core Raiders happy and a group of less experienced players happy under one roof.....g'luck with that
You can slam us all you want Danlin and Co. We do the best we can...if it isn't enough for some of you....then move on.
Levan
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MartyMacGraves
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2#
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Rank:Admin
Score:11580
Posts:2316
Registered:10/26/2002
Time spent: 60 hours
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(Date Posted:07/14/2007 10:38 PM)
In case you aren't aware, I have been a member of WGW since 1996. That doesn't mean anything other than I have a good historical perspective of "who we are." It has ALWAYS been the case that WGW members are expected to be self-reliant, self-motivated players. If you read our application, I think that comes through. We have always avoided lazy, high-maintenance players who think that the guild exists to serve them, or spoon-feed them gear, levels, etc. The prototypical WGW member is someone who gets things done ON THEIR OWN by doing their own offline research, setting up their own raids when they need something and generally being someone who gives a lot more to the guild than they expect the guild to give to them. If you misunderstood this, then I am sorry. To paraphrase JFK, "ask not what your guild can do for you, ask what you can do for your guild."
That said, some of what you say is true. We always need to help others, and it is always good to remind ourselves that a leadership position is a position of service, not a position of power. That said, here are a couple of perspectives you probably don't have.
First, who are the "Council?" Up until the beginning of this month, people were chosen as "officers" because they demonstrated knowledge, skill and accomplishment with their characters and their willingness to help others succeed. Everyone brings a different set of skills to the table, such as: they just plain kick ass, they are great at working with others, they are great raid leaders or they are willing to do a ton of work learning boss fights so that they can teach us how and we can advance. Not every person will have these abilities. The important thing is that we have enough people who, taken as a whole, covers all these things. Some people did well after being named Officers, some disappointed. So, on July 2, Levan reformed the leadership and named the following as the official Council of Warriors. As to each, I will tell you what I think they bring to the guild.
Levan GM: Levan plays virtually every night and spends almost no time at all on his alts. He reads these boards consistently, posts on the officers board and these boards, researches all boss fights in Kara, Gruuls and beyond so that our tactics are set and resolves any and all problems, disputes, crisises, etc. that come up. He has improved his toon to the point where he is one of only two players in the guild that can Main Tank Kara and Gruuls lair, without which NONE of us could advance. One of two raid leaders, who has run dozens and dozens of our players through Kara so they could have fun and improve their characters. With Secretcow, decides our raid schedule.
Myst AGM: As you recognized, Myst spends a great deal of time with our younger players, helping them get attuned, etc. She is effectively our minister of good will, morale, personnel, etc. She monitors these boards continuously. As a west coaster, she often has difficulty making our raid times, but does her best.
Secret AGM: Our other raid leader. Plays constantly and has gotten his toon to the point where he is one of two who can main tank Kara and Gruuls. Reads these boards constantly. Handles raid schedules and decisions with Levan.
Difr: Has taken personal responsibility for first helping our Rogues become more organized and effective, and then (when he saw we had several functioning Rogues) rolled a Mage and has taken personal responsibility for organizing and helping our Mages become more effective. Runs raids with Levan, and is taking a bigger role in leading raids. Plays constantly.
Zez: Global WGW GM. Has taken personal responsibility to help our Priests and healers improve. Constantly respecs back and forth from shadow priest to holy priest based upon what is needed for our Kara and Gruul's raids. Constantly active on our officer boards.
Ytram: Well, you make your own decision. Note that I have personally run dozens of people through Karazhan attunements over the last few months. I am responsible for maintaining and monitoring these bulletin boards and our Ventilo server. I am in the process of getting a Resto Shaman to 70 so that our guild has another healer, something we are desparately short of. Just this weekend, however, I organized my own Shadow Labs run with mostly newer players, and got key fragments for two of them (one in guild, one out of guild).
Bootz: Hunter leader. Monitors and posts on the Hunter boards. Organizes all of our raiding Hunters and helps them improve. Plays a lot - always shows up when needed. I have learned most of what I know about the Hunter class from Bootz.
Kasemo: Kasemo has not been able to play much this summer due to school and vacation. We all accept this because he is an outstanding player and very helpful to others when he is around. He will be more active in the fall, but still logs on when he can.
Rigs: Probably our most effective Mage. Always shows up at raid times (Kara or Gruul) when needed. A quiet but rock-solid member and officer. Developed his toon to a point where he can mage tank in the Maulgar fight, which is very difficult from a gear perspective. Posts on our officers boards when appropriate.
Now, what I am trying to figure out is which of these leaders you are talking about? I have personal knowledge that every one of these people have helped dozens and dozens of people gain attunements, get levels, obtain items, finish quests, etc. Basically, I think you expect far too much. We "leaders" need to have SOME time to actually play the game and develop our own toons as well. So, on to some of your comments:
Other GOOD, well-motivated, eager people are being left to wither on the vine as the elite members of the guild are becoming more elite.
Not sure what "whither on the vine" means. Here is what the guild offers. As to getting to 70, that is pretty much the player's responsibility. No matter what your class, you can get to 70 on your own. Guilds don't exist for that. If you mean raids, we are running two Karazhan groups every week and we are always looking for more people. Every single week, I want to avoid all the early bosses because I need nothing from them and I want to give others a chance. Almost every single week, I HAVE to run Kara because there aren't enough people online to run two groups. I know for a FACT that Levan and Secret would love to see you develop the gear and experience you need to take over tanking duties in one of our Kara groups. Our biggest complaint, as officers, is that there aren't more people willing to step up into raid leadership roles. But, you have decided to focus on alts instead of getting to a point where you are well-geared enough to main tank Kara. That's fine - everyone respects your decision on how to play. But, that's a real lost opportunity to get someone else involved, and it was the PLAYER's decision, not the LEADER's decision. We have been consistently short of players for Gruuls raids because we don't even have 25 players online who even WANT to run Gruuls (which is why we have had to bring FWH back into the fold). That said, we were able to get your Hunter into the raid, even though he is severely under-geared for Kara. Basically, if you want to raid and you show up on time, you are going to get plenty of raid opportunities. Maybe not every week, but OFTEN. We were not successful in Kara because we simply had too many players in the raid who haven't put in the time and effort to develop their toons. That's fine - we will work another week and try again.
I suppose what you really mean are the 5-mans. That's trickier. As to the non-heroics, we really don't run those too much as a guild any more. At this point in the game, the PUGs are not too bad and can generally get these done. Heroics require good, solid guild groups. You really can't invite undergeared players to Heroics. Those do tend to be "elite" runs - but only based on the fact that some players have the skill and gear to get these done, and others don't.
As to five-mans, it seems to me that we have two kinds of members. The first type are those who are self-reliant, self-motivated and willing to organize 5-mans (and so they get them done). They are patient until others are available and schedule raids a few days ahead of time when they know people will be available. They send private tells to targetted people they really need to get instances done. These players tend to be our most successful and best players, and they get the gear they need. When my shaman gets to 70 and needs to run BM, I will probably schedule something with the people I know best for a non-raiding night, and I am sure they will help me as long as they are not already committed.
The second type of player we have are those that are simply unwilling to do any sort of planning or research. They don't have the consumables they need. They forget to repair before raids. They are always biting off more than they can chew (instead of running 10-12 level 70 instances to get properly geared, they want to run BM as soon as they are level 70). They simply log on, announce that they are "LFG" and then bitch and whine if an officer doesn't drop everything and organize a group to spoon feed them an instance.
In truth, those two examples are not very realistic. Everyone has a little of both in them. Sometimes I am feeling lazy myself and tend toward the "lazy" side. But, we have several players who are almost ALWAYS on the lazy side, and ALWAYS looking to be spoon-fed. They just are not WGW material, to be honest, and they will really never accomplish much in the game.
If someone sends me a private tell, and asks me whether I might have some time in the next few days to help them complete an instance will ALWAYS get my help. I will set aside time for that person and take every possible step to help them out. I will, of course, expect them to locate other essential group members on their own. I will almost NEVER drop everything I am doing just because someone says "LFG" in guild chat, unless I just happen to be looking for something to do at that point.
In the end, your post contains the type of negative, uninformed criticisms which causes leadership burnout. It makes them think they would be better off in a high-end raiding guild, where they can just play their toons and not have to put up with whining like this. After all the time, effort and sacrifices made by these terrific people, it makes me really upset that they have to come here and read this type of thing. I really regret that you didn't talk with one of us over Vent or in a private email first. I sure hope that our other members have more appreciation for the efforts of these folks than you seem to have.
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Lead, follow or get out of the way.
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Tigg
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3#
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Rank:Admin
Score:430
Posts:86
Registered:05/07/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:07/15/2007 8:13 PM)
/support Council of Warriors
I think Levan and Marty really laid it out perfectly. I have gotten plenty of help in this guild, and I consider myself a new player - I didn't even hit 60 until the day before TBC. Myst is one of the reasons I fell in love with this guild. Not because she ran me through every tough quest and instance I wished - I pugged 90% of my trek to where I am now, but because she was always an encouragement.
I don't need to restate anything that has already been said, so I will just say that EVERY one of the people in Marty's thread has my respect. I have spoke with them, raided with them, and I think they do an excellent job leading this guild.
I think these problems seem to arise from a difference in initiative and a difference in priorities. People who can take initiative and get things done will succeed. Some people think they want to raid, but don't like to spend time gearing their main. Getting geared enough for Kara with minimal guild help is actually quite easy. If anyone reading this disagrees, please message me in game or catch me in Vent and I would love to share strategies or gear lists with you, no matter what the class. Getting geared for Gruul's basically requires a few runs through Karazhan...again, not very difficult if you make yourself available. This is how endgame works. You progress through the raids in order of difficulty, gearing yourself as you go.
To reiterate, I love this guild and I respect its leaders. Our raiding with FWH may at first limit the number of WGW members that can attend 25 mans, but it will progress the guild's raid status, which will soon allow more groups to run Gruul's, and so forth.
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Zezmo
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4#
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Rank:Admin
Score:4670
Posts:934
Registered:11/03/2002
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:07/15/2007 10:02 PM)
I can not add much to what has been said. I am sorry you feel this way Danlin, your feelings are not right or wrong, they are just your feelings. I invite you to get to the root of your feelings by using the 5 why method.... make a statement: "I have XY feelings", the ask yourself "Why do I have feelings XY?".... you will get an answer "I feel XY because of YZ", then ask "What causes YZ?". You will get and answer, ask why to that answer. Repeat this 5 times (or more) until you get to the root cause of your feelings. If you are honest, the answers may be surprising.
Did you know that combined Levan, Ytram, Rigs, Myst, Boots, and Myself have over 50 years of experience leading this guild? And that Difr, Secret, and Kasemo have less than a year? Yet, they are treated and considered as equals among the rest of the council. My point being. Our Guild is a guild of self made Men (and Women). A person who contributes to the guild today, is recognized and respected for that. Over the years, I have seen many types of exceptional individuals become part of our team. The common thread I have always found is the willingness to put the needs of the guild over the needs of oneself.
The comment about members withering on the vine strikes very true to me. The folks I see withering on the vine are those who have put the effort into progression. I see Levan, Secret, Difr, and others who have put untold hours and days of their precious free time into helping this guild go forward. It breaks my heart to hear the frustration in my dear friend Levan's voice when we once again can not accomplish what we should be doing easily by this stage of the game.
No one has said we were going to stop running Kara, no one said we are going to stop running Heroics. But, we must move on to the next stage of progression. We are losing folks, and the folks we are losing are the ones who have put forth the effort and for whom the next step of the game is SS, or BT.
Are we just s midlin guild that folks use as a stepping stone to get them invited to Tickles? Those guild do not develop folks, they demand that folks come to the game ready to go and knowing what they should do. We are not them, we allow people to grow at their own pace. We have to offer a place for everyone. If you want to play one hour a week, you are welcome. If you are a hardcore leet gamer...you are welcome.
Our alliance with FWH goes back years before WoW ever hit the Market. That's right, years before there was a WoW. They are our brothers in arms, we raided successfully and to both guilds mutual benefit pre-BC. Hell, pre-WoW, FWIW. Now, we will ally with them once again, and again for both of our mutual benefit. This may mean that yes, this week you do not get into Gruuls. In the long run, it means that you will have more chances at Gruuls and beyond because of its farm status.
Going forward, we are going to implement a standby DKP system. This means that even if not selected on a given week, you will earn DKP for the raids success. Simply by being available when needed. That way, when you do get the chance to come, you will have equivalent DKP to all other raiders. These things take a couple weeks to sort out. Patience and faith in your Raid Leaders is needed.
Heh, well I had more to say than I thought. In this Guild you get what you pay for I guess.
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See you in the Woods...
WGW Classic Website
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Ironwolf
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5#
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Registered:10/31/2002
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:07/16/2007 12:22 AM)
Geez... everyone that posted prior to me must have used Word to capture it and then past(saw the proof in Marty's post). :p
Danlinclev, I dont know you and that frees me to say what I see going on here and you can be pissed at me all ya like.
I think you need to hear another side of this story. I have seen countless players utilze WGW as the stepping stone. They come in, they gear up with WGW (because we do look for the help themselves players, and give them support and a chance), say thanks, and provide us with an excuse about how we did not do something right, and they move on. WGW helps those that help themselves, and we have been burned for it countless times. Guess what, throughout that WGW has not really changed, and the guild continues to get burned as a stepping stone. Dont take it personal when Levan tells you to move on, if thats what you feel you need to do. But realize, to some peeps, your just moving on before they gear you, and its no real loss.
WOOT WGW. The Anti-Marty(love ya bro), Kep
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SecretCow
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6#
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Rank:Admin
Score:725
Posts:145
From: USA 
Registered:02/24/2007
Time spent: 909 hours
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(Date Posted:07/16/2007 1:09 AM)
My two cents:
Where to begin indeed. I will address anything of concern to anybody, but one thing at a time I guess. I will discuss issues largely on ventrillo, or in-game, however I will state this here, and simply ask that anyone reading it speaks their mind in response to it.
The guild leadership is admittedly charged with fostering a guild environment that is supportive of bringing up its membership through content as they become ready for it. At the same time, we must look ahead, and see that we are progressing. A large problem that is spurring along much of this debate is the simple fact that the guild goes through a constant player cycle, always having players coming through, needing to move their ?toon through each level of end-game group play. In my opinion, those levels are:
- Pre-raid, 5-person group instances.
- Entry-level Raiding. Karazhan through Opera Event.
- Mid-level Raiding. Completion of Karazhan, and High King Maulgar.
- Advanced level Raiding. Gruul the Dragonkiller, Magtheridon, Serpentshrine Cavern.
The problem we are having as a guild, is while we (barely) have sufficient numbers within the guild to make it through the third tier of group-play, in order to fill a raid intended for the final tier, it gets filled with people that are not geared, experienced, or simply have the aptitude to fill their role in that raid. The guild leadership understands that we must keep moving forward through the end-game content (we have lost many good players due to a lack of progression), and if we want to complete these raid encounters, it requires nurturing a partnership with another guild that is in the same position. After we did this for one night, for one raid, the guild was abuzz with a quagmire of unhappy, sometimes irate people that were upset we were not filling positions with available, online people. The people we took from FWH were pre-selected; we had no say in what classes were given to us. This means some of our prepared, able players were not given invites as well. Other spots were simply filled with better prepared people to fill the role in that raid.
As far nurturing a never-ending brood of players through pre-raid 5-mans, and perhaps even early Karazhan, I understand we should be helping people, but this can become a full-time job. And as soon as you decline an opportunity to go usher someone through something, you are seen as elitist and non-supportive of the guild philosophy. We do have people that take every single opportunity to go help someone, and I frankly don't know how they do it, but they have the utmost respect of every guild member they encounter. We have also had several occasions where a large amount of collective time was spent with a person, training them through instances and raids, gearing them, only to have them leave as soon as they are nearly ready for 25-man raids. I agree with some of the other council members that it is not the responsibility of the raids and guild leadership to personally escort people to their 25-man instance loot. This sounds harsh, but I am not alone in feeling that is what several people use us for. There are obvious exceptions when we feel a person has the interests of the guild in mind, and it is very easy to tell these people apart. These people will find we (within reason) do what we can to help them in their end-game experience. Again, this is not guild policy, this is my personal feeling.
At the end of the day, the Council accepts that we cannot keep everyone happy, and there is no magic solution that will do that. While we are always appreciative of input and suggestions to improve overall success and morale, every suggestion or proposition cannot be implemented. Often, things are also simply overlooked, we are (believe it or not) still human, and we miss things, not necessarily out of policy or conscious decision. As I said, I always want to hear from people, want to have constructive discussions. Find me on vent, and trust that, once you are heard, the Council and Raid leaders will make the best decision that we can for the sake of the guild and the raids.
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FreakyStylie
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7#
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Rank:Admin
Score:65
Posts:13
Registered:05/23/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:07/16/2007 1:11 AM)
I don't see where this came from Danlin. I've been playing WoW since open beta, and this has been by far the most enjoyable group of people/helpful I've played with. If you think they are not doing the job they should to help you and others progress, I'll let you in on something. Before joining, I was in Insanity and if not for leaving and coming here I probably wouldn't be playing anymore at all. If you want a prime example of selfish, self centered people it was them ... I was part of them since the beginning yet was never giving a chance to raid, never could get a 5 man group together and questing forget about it cause if they had already done it they didn't want to do it again for you.
If you do end up leaving, best of luck to you but you'll realize pretty quickly I think that not many guilds and people are like WGW. Sure sometimes you can't find help, I myself know I want to help others but its not always possible and vise versa.
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Arthelas
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8#
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Rank:Admin
Score:60
Posts:12
Registered:06/28/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:07/16/2007 1:44 AM)
My impressions of WGW:
I have been playing WoW since it came out, and never in all that time have I found a more helpful or supportive guild. After BC came out I set about leveling my character to 70 and then began gearing it to be Karazhan ready. I got myself to what I believed an acceptable gear level for a healer starting Kara (1100 healing). At this point I was in Alcohol Fueweled Brewtality, until there was a guild dispute and a fraction broke off. That faction was Sinners and Saints, in Sinners I was never allowed to raid because another paladin was an assistant guild leader. I happened to get pugged into a wgw raid group. From that night i was treated fairly and warmly. I was even allowed to roll for loot regardless of the fact i was not even in the guild. I joined WgW that night after a brief conversation with Obflight and have loved WgW ever since. They are by far the fairest guild I have ever seen on WoW. They try to take as many able people to kara as they can, with many guild leaders willing to step out for others. They allow almost anyone with even a slightly reasonable claim to an item to roll on it. They help people get attuned and offer advice and valuable experience. Hell I sometimes log on at 2 am server time to see a 70 running some 50s scholo or strat. So to WGW's council I appreciate and applaud your time and efforts. Keep up the good work.
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What is Heal?
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Turuden
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9#
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Rank:Admin
Score:70
Posts:14
Registered:05/18/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:07/16/2007 8:06 AM)
yeah bro, i also agree with levan marty zez etc. i love this guild so much, this has been by far THE most helpful, fun, active guild i have been in, i have played wow since it came out, and this is by far the best guild i've been in. zez, myst, secret, and marty, have helped me a bunch, and i really appreciate them helping me and i have helped other guildies as well, sure i dont ALWAYS want to go do some lowbie instance cause id like to have some alone time and enjoy playing with friends and talking with my friends. but if someone in the guild asks me to help them on something id always love to help and i do, sometimes i cant because im about to log or may be in a Slabs grp or w/e, but id have to disagree with you on this subject, cause this is a very nice and helpful guild
-Turuden
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Wgw Rigel
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10#
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Rank:Admin
Score:305
Posts:61
Registered:03/04/2003
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:07/16/2007 4:25 PM)
Everything that needed to be said was said.... You will not find a better group of people then in this guild, if people choose to bash other people, i say you need to move on.. iv played with levan, Marty, Z and others for almost 10 years, iv met so many new folks ( who are now my friends ) whom i love to play with and help on a daily basis !
I would never knock my own guild, i would always try to make it better Dan ! Things are not easy and we do the best we can... making everybody happy is not realistic but we as a council try to do everything we can to help organize and guide the people who ask/need it.
WGW is the REASON i am where i am today.. i owe them EVERYTHING, iv been made offers to other guilds that have progressed a lot more, but i could never make the friends iv made here after so many years whom i love to play with everynight !
Everyone of these people has sacrificed a great deal to help many of our members progress !!! Dont take that away from them !!
I would cancel my account and delete my char before i ever left Wgw and my friends ( New and Old )
Would you leave your family ?
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Rigel
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difr
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11#
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Rank:Admin
Score:435
Posts:87
Registered:05/16/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:07/16/2007 4:51 PM)
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Following in the Rogue Tradition of Assassination.
You wish you could do this much dps in pigtails!
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danlinclev
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12#
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Rank:Admin
Score:35
Posts:7
Registered:05/24/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:07/16/2007 5:30 PM)
Well, folks. Even though the method in which things have happened started out rather.. umm.. unpleasant; pleasant, positive, constructive, upbuilding, progressive things have happened out of this. A slight change to the raid schedule is going to occur; which will take the pressure off the current Karazhan raid leaders. Allowing them to focus more on Gruul's and then onto SSC, Mags and then the big boys at the end. This, I/we hope is going to accelerate the progression of this guild. Within a few weeks I hope to be able to feed into the 25-man group(s) more players who are geared-out and skilled-out enough to make a progressive contribution. I've been graciously offered all the assistance and guidance that the corps of experienced raiders have to offer. Which, frankly, is more than I could have hoped to have happen. Bear in mind that I'm not always... in fact rarely ever... a mouthy, uppity ass which.. in all honesty... I came off being in the original post in this thread.
The focus of the new Karazhan group will be to meld some inexperienced(but adequately geared)raiders, some moderately experienced raiders(like myself)and 2-3 highly experienced raiders into a Karazhan group that will bulldoze through the instance effectively. Eventually, I'd like to build my own skill-set and knowledge set up to the point where those highly experienced raiders aren't even needed. Rotating the willing in and out of the group as needed will give experience(and loot opportunities)to those who otherwise might have to wait til Kara is on farm status and nearly forgotten about.
I look at it sort of like the military. The officers and Core Raiders are like the SeAL's, Recon Marines and Rangers of this army. They are the vanguard scouting new territory and beating down the enemy so that we, the soldiers, sailors and marines can go in and kick ass with plenty of sound, useful and. well... punishing intel. I'm more than happy to let them blaze the trail while I pull drag. In a patrol, the LAST man in line is every bit(sometimes more)important than the guy walking point. And, if you do enough push-ups, run enough miles, swim enough laps.. to get all buffed out.. drink enough tequila, wreck enough bars, get enough tattooes.. maybe you might feel like you wanna try out for the SeAL's or Rangers? I'd love to put you in that position and I'm nearly positive that the Officers and Raid Leaders here at WGW would LOOOOVE to have the man-power for 2 Black Temple groups. It's my intent to shove so many able-bodied, uber-equipped, well-skilled people...chomping at the bit to kill something bigger.. at the Core Raiders that Levan sends me a tell saying "Okay Dwayne.. enough already.. take a break."
So, if you feel you're geared-out well enough to stand up in Karazhan and just haven't gotten the chance. If you've been there; but, need more gear from there. If you're set on gear; but, feel like giving a helping hand to those who your help would be invaluable to. Send me a tell in-game. Or, make your interest known here. I'll be fleshing out the list as fast as possible because I really want to hit the ground running w/this group.
Dwayne
Danlinclev, Tiacovenant, Fandarel, Nathasha
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MartyMacGraves
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13#
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Rank:Admin
Score:11580
Posts:2316
Registered:10/26/2002
Time spent: 60 hours
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(Date Posted:07/16/2007 11:53 PM)
To summarize:
1. We are in the process of de-emphasizing 10-man Kara raids and emphasizing 25-man raids to Gruul's Lair, Magtheridon's Lair and beyond. That said, we have found what we believe to be a great way to maintain two weekly Kara raids and give even more opportunities to people who want Kara raids.
2. One group will consist of experienced, well-geared players who still like Kara, but who only need a few items from Kara and want to run uber-fast runs. We have proven, for instance, that we can run with only two healers and that we can knock out a huge chunk of Kara in one night. I suspect this group will often skip several bosses, focusing on Moroes --> Opera ---> Curator ---> Aran -----> Prince ---> Nightbane, which minimizes time requirements and maximizes fun and loot. I suspect that this group will be led by either Secret, Levan or Difr.
3. The other group will be run by Danlinclev, who has been groomed as our next big-time main tank for several weeks now. We will make sure to provide him 2 or 3 experienced raiders, on a rotating, as-needed basis, so that the correct strategies are known and the raids have a great chance at success. The other spots will be reserved for all the folks who have had some trouble getting Kara raids in the past. As Dan says, as the need for experienced players is reduced, it will become more and more about getting people more chances at Kara raids. Danlinclev will be completely in charge. He will select the groups, decide when to raid, decide where the loot goes, etc. etc. We have a great deal of faith in Dan and know he will do well. We fully expect that this group will produce the next generation of WGW raiders and raid leaders, which is why we are doing it.
4. ALL WGW members are still welcome in, and expected to make themselves available for, 25-man raids, as long as they are well-geared (which is usually a combo of Kara gear, PvP gear, crafted gear and drops from 5-mans). Of course, we will choose the best 25 people available, including those from our raiding partners in FWH, so that we can advance through Gruul's and Mag just like we have blazed a trail through Kara.
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Lead, follow or get out of the way.
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SecretCow
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14#
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Rank:Admin
Score:725
Posts:145
From: USA
Registered:02/24/2007
Time spent: 909 hours
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(Date Posted:07/17/2007 12:36 AM)
/signed, I love it. This will provide more raid invites for more people, while at the same time taking a load off the people that have been running the instance for 4-5 months. We are also looking to have people rediscover the instance, and take more enjoyment out completing bosses, rather than "running through" 1-2 rookies in with 8-9 veterans (which does very little to teach people how to raid).
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Levan
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15#
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Rank:Admin
Score:985
Posts:197
Registered:04/19/2005
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:07/17/2007 12:49 AM)
Well, folks. Even though the method in which things have happened started out rather.. umm.. unpleasant; pleasant, positive, constructive, upbuilding, progressive things have happened out of this. A slight change to the raid schedule is going to occur; which will take the pressure off the current Karazhan raid leaders. Allowing them to focus more on Gruul's and then onto SSC, Mags and then the big boys at the end. This, I/we hope is going to accelerate the progression of this guild. Within a few weeks I hope to be able to feed into the 25-man group(s) more players who are geared-out and skilled-out enough to make a progressive contribution. I've been graciously offered all the assistance and guidance that the corps of experienced raiders have to offer. Which, frankly, is more than I could have hoped to have happen. Bear in mind that I'm not always... in fact rarely ever... a mouthy, uppity ass which.. in all honesty... I came off being in the original post in this thread.
Nothing positive, constructive, upbuilding or progressive has happened as a result of this thread. EXCEPT for the support shown to the Guild Leaders in the posts from WGW Members.
Your post was misguided and inflammatory, it was accepted by us only because it reflected your true feelings. Feelings aren't right or wrong, they just are...or so the saying goes. You and I chatted in text and vent a bit after this post was made. I assured you that noone wanted you to leave WGW but that your criticisms were unfair and unacceptable.
The change in the Kara Raids and emphasis on 25 man Raids has been discussed for weeks, your post had nothing to do with it, don't kid yourself. All your post did was bash good people and frankly you owe them an apology.
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Ferrix
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16#
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Rank:Admin
Score:3830
Posts:766
Registered:06/18/2003
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:07/17/2007 2:03 AM)
I'll admit, while we're discussing the leadership, structure, guild mechanics, etc, when i first came over to WoW, other than the game itself i was unimpressed. Granted i came from a game who's endgame, and frankly the process in which you advanced was a bit more forgiving. This chapter of our guild seemed in dissention and frankly it was almost embaressing.
One of the main things that gave me that impression was my complete inexprience in WoW, and the completely different nature of WoW compared to DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot). I've been taking a very, very quiet role here in WoW, largely due to my lack of knowledge to how things run around these parts, and to my complete lack of availibilty to really get involve in the true endgame. Well also i'll have to admit DAoC burned me out pretty hard on the leading role.
I have been reading these boards, trying not to comment too much and show just how unfamiliar i really am with this game, but i have seen a lot of great things evolve in the months that i have been a part of this chapter. Levan and all of the council have impressed me greatly with their willness to sacrifice their time to push for the advancement of the entire guild. Especially in WoW, i've notice how much time and time and time it takes to run these instances, find the proper setups and tactics, and then find the proper people it will take to get the job done on a "farmable" basis. There is nothing more frushtrating than being the "tester" of new environments and challenges in games like this and then to have people complain that they aren't being "included" in the fun. Believe me there is no fun in busting your butt to get something down, so that others will be able to be taught and can learn from your months of hard work, while during that process you have people leaving and complaining about the member who are trying to improve everyone's enjoyment in the game. It can be down right frushtrating, but that is what you're leaders have been doing. They have been spending frushtrating hours, weeks at a time, paving the way for the rest of us that choose to follow them.
Anyway, i'm sure i've rambled on enough, my hat is off you Levan and the rest of the WGW council and leaders here. I am proud to see that the same desire and passion lives here in WoW that did before DAoC lost its luster. Keep up the good work, you have my complete and utter support, though it may seem that i tend to lurk in the corner alot.
Oh yeah, and those of you who don't know me very well, my spelling and typing skills are terrible 
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Master of War
Ferrix lvl 50 Celtic Spear Hero - WGW
Galgothan lvl 50 Valewalker - WGW
Mooooose lvl 20 BM - WGW (LGM WC)
Timarn 50 Warrior - Dogs of War (WCer in training)
Pherrix 50 Shaman - WGW - Gareth (LGM Spellcrafter)
Roraug Healer - Dogs of War - Gareth (LGM Armor Crafter)
Greaven Skald - WGW - Gareth
Rilldin (Damn Mythic"s name nerfing - formally Ridlin) 50 Runemaster - Dogs of War - Gareth
Ferrix - Night Elf Priest - WGW (WoW)
"Do your duty in all things. You cannot do more, you should never wish to do less" -- Robert E. Lee
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Rissoman
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17#
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Rank:Admin
Score:530
Posts:106
Registered:03/12/2004
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:07/17/2007 6:19 AM)
I can't say anything besides "DAMN". Only thing I miss from WOW is my WGW friends. To whoever this dan whatever guy is. You don't know anything, try shutting your mouth and actually hang around the guild for years, learn our history, what we do and, then talk. Hope all is good with you all.
Risso
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Tiggs
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18#
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Rank:Admin
Score:45
Posts:9
Registered:07/13/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:07/17/2007 10:01 PM)
I guess I can't help but just say something... I am probably one of the type of folks that Danlin is talking about helping. I've been in this guild for 7 or 8 months and only been playing WoW for about a year and a half. I more or less solo'd to 60 and since then I've mostly solo'd to 67, where I am now, running 95% PuG's in instances. I'm still pretty much a noob at this game... I can hold my own but there's still tons of things I don't know. Almost everything I do now is new to me at this point, as Tiggs is my main and not yet 70... I agree with most people that this guild, in comparison to most out there, and most WoW players in general, is incredible. For the most part, mature, helpful, friendly people. As most have said, no one made me feel more welcome than Myst. In fact, she probably single-handedly made me feel comfortable as a member of the guild and contributed a lot to my attempts to get to know people. However, albeit recently, Danlinclev has been the only person in any kind of leadership position (Sabeatha and Myst excluded) who has offered to help me or even say much to me. I have been desperately trying to get to 70 partially because that seems to be where everyone is, and because whenever people are asking for help it's usually for higher level quests, etc. I very rarely see people on at or close to my level... frequently I'm the only person on above 60 and under 70. That leaves me feeling a bit bad for always pleading 70's to help me or finding pugs. The highest level people in the guild are also generally the highest level crafters... I'm not sure I even know of any high level JC's in the guild besides Danlin and Levan. I generally don't like to bug the people that CAN help me because they're usually raiding or busy elsewhere. I completely understand the need to construct a group of core raiders and push the guild in that direction... and while most of the people doing that are very helpful to each other, I can't say I've felt connected to that group of people... some have flat-out ignored me. I don't really have any finger to point in that way. It's reasonable to me that most of the people at the top are doing things that require a lot of commitment and consistency and running with the same crowd makes sense. But I also can't help sympathizing with Danlin, particularly because he's one of the few people who've helped me or talked to me (there are several exceptions, such as the ones I mentioned, but many others seem invisible). I can't see what's wrong with his argument... if people contend that they are already being helpful, then they should have no reason to be offended by what he has to say. From my perspective, he is only trying to make the guild better.
I am someone who will always need a little help and advice in this game. Levan mentioned something about the rogue advisors and I'm sorry to say I didn't even know who they were. It certainly wouldn't have occured to me to ask them for advice. In fact, Danlin (or Tia) was the one who gave me the most advice on rogue tactics, and inspired me to level up my warrior. I'm not sure if Difr and Shark even know who I am.
I would like to someday get to the point where I can raid and be a useful member... but as I said, I'll always need help and feel a little bit like a noob. There are a lot of people like that in this guild... my own mother has 3 characters in the guild, and is another one who can always use help, though she greatly underestimates her abilities. Danlin even took the time to say hi to her in guild chat, probably one of the only people who acknowledged her.
Anyway... I do enjoy this guild. It's done wonders for me and making me feel like a part of the game. I have often wondered, however, what we're really committed to... Raiding or leveling? It seems difficult to do both well, and if that's our goal, everyone really does have to be committed to that. If any guild could do it, we could. However, I think Danlin has gotten a pretty unfair treatment... I just hope he finds what he's looking for, and if he does I might be there with him.
I know Danlin already left, but I still felt I should say something. I hope I have not offended anyone else as that isn't my intention. It will be interesting, however, to see where this guild goes. I hope it's in a good direction.
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MartyMacGraves
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19#
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Rank:Admin
Score:11580
Posts:2316
Registered:10/26/2002
Time spent: 60 hours
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(Date Posted:07/18/2007 12:42 AM)
Tiggs:
"I have often wondered, however, what we're really committed to... Raiding or leveling?"
The answer is raiding, without question. Anyone can level a toon of any class to level 70 completely on their own. Leveling to 70 is simply to teach you the basics of your class and give you some idea of the scope of the game. There is nothing challenging in getting to 70 - millions of people do that every day. The true challenges are group oriented and start after you hit 70.
As to your question about who the Rogue leader is, Difr posted this on the Rogues board on May 27:
"This post is for all our rogues in the guild. A very long post but very important!
I ask please if you would please:
1)Post your armory link
2)Post if you want a core raider status, playing casually, or pvp'ing.
3)Post what you would like to get out of your time with WGW.
4)Post what Items from what instances you would like/need in the format ill put below."
You have been in WGW for 7 or 8 months, but you registered for these boards on July 14, which is FOUR days ago. This is your 2nd post (your first was to ask for Private Board access). You never responded to Difr's specific invitation to find out what you were interested in accomplishing with your toon, what items you needed, etc. etc. I assume you never even bothered to come to these boards until this week.
And you are blaming guild leaders for not helping you more than they have?
/boggle
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Lead, follow or get out of the way.
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Marchildon
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20#
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Rank:Admin
Score:25
Posts:5
Registered:06/18/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:07/18/2007 12:47 AM)
Well Danlin, i have the up most respect for you and your a great guy. I just think that you needed to give this some more time and thought, being a guildmaster/leader is not easy. I hope everything goes well for you where ever WoW takes you. Peace and respect.
March
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[url=http://armory.mmo-champion.com/] [/url]
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Tiggs
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21#
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Rank:Admin
Score:45
Posts:9
Registered:07/13/2007
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:07/18/2007 6:54 AM)
Well I apologize... I'm basically new to this game as I said. I didn't really know much about the website until very recently, it's true. A friend of mine invited me to the guild and my last guild was a very informal, small, essentially family guild. And many left that guild to get more serious about raiding. I left for other reasons, and joined WGW because of its reputation and because of my friend in the guild. I didn't know there WERE such a thing as class advisors until I heard someone's title logging into vent. I apologize for not being more involved but I'm only recently finding out what I can be involved in.
What I mean by what kind of guild are we... well, if it's a raiding guild and a raiding guild only, then that should be made clearer. Danlin quoted the guild charter about helping people out, etc. If the goal is raiding, then make the guild about raiding. Don't have lower levels ('cept alts). There's nothing wrong with a raiding guild, but make that clear. The guild is operating under the impression that we help other people out. If people need to get leveled and geared on their own, that should be made clear.
You can criticize me for being new to the guild and uninvolved... but that's exactly my point. I'm sure that all of you were at one point at the place I am... with some potential but needing a little guidance. I'm certainly not going to get into 25-man raids and geared up unless someone's actually willing to have me around... the reason I did say anything is because I AM the type of person Danlin is talking about helping (not that I wouldn't also help out others), and I just wanted to say that for someone like me, I greatly appreciate the efforts he made. I just wanted to share that perspective.
I am NOT calling everyone out. Like everyone else, I greatly appreciate the help WGW has given me... I simply see Danlin's point, as well. I think a lot of people are taking sides in something that should be more an issue of introspection on the guild as a whole... we need to be true to who we are, as cheesey as that sounds, or change the nature of the guild and the expectations.
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DoorDAoC
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22#
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Rank:Admin
Score:325
Posts:65
Registered:11/10/2002
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:07/18/2007 12:56 PM)
It's hard being new to WGW I've noticed that over the years...unless you have a reputation that proceeds your invite. People have to take initiative and get things rolling on their own. And it's hard...especially when you don't know many of the people in the guild. The majority of us do try to help out though. What I gather from this is we need someone that's near 70 or 70 that needs to get geared up to start up a "getting geared for kara!" night. If WGW made a move and demanded that it's players spend time with those not as far a long in the game...I think you'd see a lot of frustrated older players.
All I can really say though is give it more time. WGW is a great guild with a great group of people actively involved in it.
If there's ever anything I can help with let me know...I try my best to lend a hand.
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Door: "QUICK HELP I poked at something and now it wants me dead!!!"
Grizzli: "The eyes Door!!! Go for the eyes!!!"
ahhh...nastalgia...
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MartyMacGraves
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23#
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Rank:Admin
Score:11580
Posts:2316
Registered:10/26/2002
Time spent: 60 hours
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(Date Posted:07/18/2007 10:29 PM)
Too funny. On July 15, Danlin wrote this in his initial post:
"If you want to find me, I'll be leading from the front."
On that same day, he applied to join another guild, Elite:
http://eliteguild.org/forums/index.php?topic=2319.0
Just goes to show you can't trust anybody I guess.
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Lead, follow or get out of the way.
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DoorDAoC
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24#
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Rank:Admin
Score:325
Posts:65
Registered:11/10/2002
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:07/19/2007 12:04 AM)
Same ol' same ol' eh Marty?
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Door: "QUICK HELP I poked at something and now it wants me dead!!!"
Grizzli: "The eyes Door!!! Go for the eyes!!!"
ahhh...nastalgia...
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Zezmo
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25#
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Rank:Admin
Score:4670
Posts:934
Registered:11/03/2002
Time spent: 0 hours
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(Date Posted:07/19/2007 8:17 PM)
Actually, it looks like that was posted the day before the open letter.
We can not be all things to all people. If you are comfortable here, and like the folks please stay and be a part of our community. If you see the grass is greener elsewhere, please enjoy and best of luck to you. If you think things could be run better in WGW, then step up and become a leader and make the changes you wish to see. Our leadership is not an elite club with excusive members. It is simply the group of people who choose to volunteer thier precious free time to help create an environment for us to all get more enjoyment out of this game. No more, no less.
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See you in the Woods...
WGW Classic Website
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